June 7, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on “Let Them Eat Cake…”

“Let Them Eat Cake…”

…and they did, on a boat, in Glen Canyon, in 1956. Here, Katie is writing in a journal while Frank Wright sits. They are drifting down the Colorado River in Glen Canyon with their friend, the photographer Tad Nichols.

These three friend took numerous trips through Glen Canyon before the dam was completed. Their story will be part of the Katie Lee Exhibit.

NAU.PH.99.3.1.9.136
Nichols, Tad
[Katie and Frank with cake – in boat, the ‘Piute’; this image appears in Tad’s Glen Canyon book on page 5.]
Glen Canyon trip – Flight to Hite Ferry – Boating, camping, and hiking through Glen Canyon [constructed title] October 1956.

June 6, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern Confessions: Week 2: Jerome and Q

Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern Confessions: Week 2: Jerome and Q

This week, I have been writing about Katie. This includes her life in Hollywood as an actress and folk singer, where she lived, her relationships, and her writings. As part of the internship, I visited Jerome with my project managers (Kelly Phillips and Sean Evans), where Katie lived from 1971 until her death in 2017.

Our first stop in Jerome was Katie’s house. It was amazing to see the view from her back porch looking out over the valley. Her house is a bright turquoise and can be seen from many places in Jerome.

Jerome Mining Museum, Jerome Historical Society, Jerome, AZ. May 2019

Our second stop was the Jerome Historical Society’s Mining Museum. The Mining Museum’s exhibit on Katie does her justice and is a fitting tribute to a person who was beloved and cherished by so many of her friends and neighbors. Seeing Katie’s house helped me better understand her and get a sense of why she loved Jerome so much.

The best part of visiting the Mining Museum and meeting with the museum staff who showed us some the amazing material they’re caring. They passed along several humorous anecdotes about working with Katie. It was a treat learning more about Katie from those who knew her well.

An unrelated highlight of the internship was having lunch with Richard Quartaroli, The Special Collections Librarian emeritus. Richard was friends with Katie and shared several stories about his time with her and his experiences as a river runner. Thanks, Richard, or can I call you “Q”?

As an interesting aside, one of Katie’s more popular songs – “It Must Be Something Psychological” – from her album Songs of Couch and Consultation (1957) was used in an Axe/Lynx men’s deodorant commercial in 2012. It is interesting to see how music can be re-used over time. See the commercial on YouTube here.

Photos taken by Britney Bibeault.

May 24, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Internship: Week 1 – Research and Planning

Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Internship: Week 1 – Research and Planning

This year’s Special Collections and Archives exhibit, created by the Elizabeth M. and PT Reilly intern (me, see previous post), will feature and celebrate the life of Katie Lee, a singer, songwriter, actress, river runner, and activist. This summer, I will curate and develop an online and physical exhibit for Special Collections and Archives at Cline Library that will open in mid-October 2019. As this year’s Reilly intern, I would like to share my first week’s progress. I have been reading through her books and going through her manuscript collection. I’m reviewing photographs connected to Katie and the people and places she adored. Below, she is exploring Labyrinth Canyon in Glen Canyon in 1956 – one of her favorite places. Glen Canyon was her escape from Hollywood and performing and became her refuge until the Glen Canyon Dam was completed in 1963. After her Eden was dammed, Katie did not return to Glen Canyon and she advocated for the dam to be removed until her death in 2017.

Katie Lee in Labyrinth Canyon, Glen Canyon. Photograph courtesy of Tad Nichols Collection (NAU.PH.99.3.1.9.109)

April 10, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Introducing the 2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern – Ms. Britney Bibeault

Introducing the 2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern – Ms. Britney Bibeault

Britney Bibeault, 2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern
Image Courtesy of Britney Bibeault

It is our pleasure to announce Britney Bibeault as the 2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Intern. Britney will be working with the staff of Special Collections and Archives to develop virtual and physical exhibits celebrating the life and activities of actress, singer/songwriter, river runner, author, activist, and world class cusser, Katie Lee. Britney is completing her junior year in the Honors College at Northern Arizona University studying anthropology and history.

Britney is the recipient of the Lumberjack scholarship and a member of the NAU Honors Society – Alpha Lambda Delta; she’s been on the Dean’s List since her arrival. Britney is a student assistant in Special Collections and Archives, where she arranged and described the manuscript portion of the Katie Lee collection. She also received the Mary Crawley scholarship in 2018.

To give everyone the opportunity to learn a bit more about Britney, we asked her a few questions…the most important of which is the last question.

What are you studying at NAU?

I am studying history and anthropology with an emphasis on archaeology. I’m fascinated by the study of previous cultures and history and what they tell us about ourselves.

Tell us where you’re from and why you chose NAU?

My family is currently living in Buckeye, AZ, but I have lived in Idaho, New Mexico, and England. I came to NAU because it is in Arizona and it’s close to my family. It’s also a beautiful area where it rains and there are a wide variety of outdoor and recreational activities. Academically, I was drawn to the Honors Program (now College) and the faculty in the Honors College.

What are you hoping to learn from the experience?

Katie Lee in Dungeon Canyon,
Photograph Courtesy of Tad Nichols Collection, NAU.PH.99.3.1.9.88

I am hoping to learn how to present information to the public in a way that is relatable and relevant. I had the opportunity to arrange and describe Katie’s collection, which combines my interest in history with the study of earlier cultures. Katie is a well-know figure in the region and she was involved with so many different things, such as acting, signing, writing, activism, etc. While I was going through her collection, I was learning about early human and indigenous activity in the Glen Canyon region of the Colorado Plateau. These things excite me!

What interested you about the Reilly Internship?

The Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Internship interested me because I would like to eventually work in a museum or archives, sharing and interpreting historical information to the public. The internship provides the perfect opportunity to learn how to develop an exhibit, tell a compelling story, and fabricate and install an exhibit. As I mentioned above, I processed the manuscript portion of the Katie Lee Collection and found myself wanting to learn more and understand her in a broader historical context.

Katie Lee, Glen Canyon, May 1954
Photograph Courtesy of Tad Nichols Collection, NAU.PH.99.3.1.5.3

Do you have a favorite Katie Lee quote, story, photo (PG13 rated), and/or something from her life that you would like to share with us?

One of the fascinating aspects of Katie Lee that isn’t quite as well-known is world travels. When she was in her late 50s, she inherited some money and used it to travel the world and kept detailed journals of her trip which are absolutely amazing. It is a dream of mine to travel around the world and Katie’s trip is inspirational.

What inspires you outside of class, studying, and the internship, and why?

I have many things that inspire me outside of class, studying, and the internship. My family and friends inspire me to grow and become a better person. I am inspired by the beauty around me in nature and other people. I’m also inspired by makers (people who crochet, knit, dye yarn quilt, essentially just make things) because I hope to be able to create beautiful things that people enjoy.

Are you in camp dog or cat…and why?

I love cats. I have a cat, named Abe, and Abe is the kewlest kat around. Anytime I see a cat, I get so excited. I actually have a tattoo of one of my cats. I like dogs; okay, I only like Corgis, because they’re dogs trained as cats, and they’re cute.

February 26, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Happy Birthday Grand Canyon National Park

Happy Birthday Grand Canyon National Park

Grand Canyon from Yaki Point
Photo Courtesy of Josef Muench Collection

Today marks the 100th anniversary of the Grand Canyon National Park. President Woodrow Wilson designated Grand Canyon as the 15th national park on Feb. 26, 1919, after decades of lobbying to protect the Canyon.

Two NPS Rangers, Grand Canyon National Park
Photo courtesy of Grand Canyon National Park Museum Collection

Today, the Grand Canyon National Park is one of the most visited national parks in the country. It see approximately 7 million visitors a year, most of whom see the Grand Canyon from the South Rim Village. It is one of the most iconic national parks in the national park system and wows the viewer with breath-taking vistas that stretch for over twenty miles.

President Roosevelt at Rust Camp, Grand Canyon, 1913
Photo courtesy of Edwin Jessop Marshall Collection

The Cline Library Special Collections and Archives is hosting an exhibit celebrating the centennial of the Grand Canyon National Park. Splendor and Spectacle: The 100 Year Journey of the Grand Canyon National Park was curated by Ms. Hana Lipke, a senior Honors College student at Northern Arizona University, with guidance and direction from Kelly Phillips, Archivist for Digital Programs, and Sean Evans, University Archivist. The exhibit is located on the second floor of the Cline Library in Special Collections and Archives. It is available for viewing Monday through Thursday form 9:00am – 6:00pm and Fridays from 9:00am – 5:00pm. The exhibit opened on October 23, 2018 and will be available through September 2019. For those of you unable to visit the physical exhibit, we have an online version of the exhibit freely available here.

NAU Honors College Senior and the Elizabeth M and PT Reilly intern, Ms. Hana Lipke
Photo courtesy of Hana Lipke

Complementing the exhibits, the Cline Library partnered with the Arizona State University Library and the Grand Canyon National Park Museum to digitize over 3,000 letters, photographs, reports, and other primary source material documenting the transition of the Grand Canyon from its pioneering, free-enterprise period to becoming a national park. The 100 Years of Grand project is both a celebration and exploration of one of America’s most fascinating national parks. The project was just featured in the Guardian Weekly.

We encourage everyone to visit and experience the Grand Canyon and the Splendor and Spectacle exhibits.

January 14, 2019
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on 2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Internship Announcement Celebrating the Life of Katie Lee

2019 Elizabeth M and PT Reilly Internship Announcement Celebrating the Life of Katie Lee

Katie Lee in water-filled pothole, Llewellyn Gulch. Photo Tad Nichols

Northern Arizona University

Cline Library

Archival Internship Announcement

Northern Arizona University’s Cline Library invites applications for the 2019 Elizabeth M. and P.T. Reilly Internship. The 2019 Reilly intern will work closely with Special Collections and Archives (SCA) staff to develop physical and virtual exhibits that celebrate the life, work, and experiences of Katie Lee.

Katie Lee, cooking dinner, Glen Canyon. Photo Tad Nichols

Lee (1919-2017) was a Hollywood actress, folk singer, river runner, writer, ardent advocate for the preservation of Glen Canyon, and a vociferous champion of the sensuous and unique beauty of the Southwest.

The Reilly intern will draw on SCA’s vast and rich resources to develop exhibits that reflect the spirit, passion, and independence with which Katie Lee lived her life. To learn more about Lee, see the finding guide to her collection, a selection of digitized items from her collection, and Beth and George Gage’s short documentary film Kickass Katie Lee.

Katie Lee, Grand Canyon, circa 1953. Photo Tad Nichols

SCA envisions the exhibits as a retrospective examination of Katie Lee’s life that celebrates her love for the Southwest and Glen Canyon. The intern will explore and synthesize the various aspects of Lee’s life to tell the story of a woman who witnessed her beloved Glen Canyon buried beneath Lake Powell, an experience that fueled an indefatigable drive to oppose future dams, ensure that rivers flow freely, and to protect the Southwest canyonlands and deserts. The successful intern will get to know Katie Lee and her relationship with the Southwest and share her life and experiences with the world through the exhibit.

Katie Lee, with Jim Rigg, Playing the Guitar, Grand Canyon. Photo Tad Nichols

SCA contains one of the most comprehensive collections of Grand Canyon and Colorado Plateau history in the world. More than 700 collections containing millions of photographs, correspondence, journals, maps, films, and oral histories that document the human and natural history of the Colorado Plateau from a variety of perspectives from the 19^thcentury to the present.

Duties and Opportunities: The 2019 Reilly intern will assume primary responsibility for the virtual exhibit (web-based, developed using WordPress). The intern will also provide significant support for the development of the physical exhibit, from its interpretive text to its design and fabrication.

The Reilly intern will gain practical experience in:

Research
- Synthesis of primary and published sources
Exhibit Planning (team-based)
- Storyline development, content selection,and interpretation
- Webpage design, creation, and digital storytelling

Public speaking (presentation to library staff upon completion of the internship)

The Reilly intern will work 40 hours per week for 10 consecutive weeks. The successful candidate will select a 10-week block between May 13 – August 16, 2019. The workweek schedule offers some flexibility.

Stipend and Housing: $4,500 (no benefits included) total. The Reilly intern will be paid in bi-weekly installments to reach the total of $4,500. On-campus housing is subject to availability. For more information, please consult https://nau.edu/Residence-Life/Housing-Options/Summer-Housing/. Renting a room in the community is also a possibility. The successful candidate must be willing to relocate to Flagstaff for 10 weeks and underwrite his or her own food, lodging, transportation to work, and parking.

Qualifications: The preferred candidate will be a highly motivated and organized student in information science, museum studies, history, or related field working toward a career in a library, museum, or archives setting. Graduate students need to be currently enrolled in an accredited program with an anticipated completion date of August/September 2019 or later. Undergraduate (junior or senior) students studying applied indigenous studies, geography, history, environmental history, anthropology, or other appropriate areasare also encouraged to apply.

Knowledge, Skills, Abilities Required:

Strong ability to write creatively and objectively while employing advanced research skills
Demonstrated experience with web design
Excellent communication skills
Familiarity with video and audio software tools, HTML editing, and the Adobe Creative Suite products
Ability to work as part of a team
Proficiency with Microsoft Office products

Knowledge, Skills, Abilities Preferred:

Knowledge of Colorado Plateau, Glen Canyon, Katie Lee, and Southwest history
Familiarity with archival practice
Experience with WordPress

Application Deadline: March 1, 2019. To apply, submit the following documents to:

Peter.Runge@nau.edu or

Peter Runge, NAU Cline Library, Box 6022, Flagstaff, AZ 86011-6022:

Letter of application addressing your qualifications, including hyperlinks to previous online exhibits or relevant projects you have created/designed
A 250-word writing sample. Prompt: Tell us about a person or place that has inspired you.
Résumé or vita
Copy of current transcript
Names and contact information for three references

For more information, contact Peter Runge via email at peter.runge@nau.edu or phone at (928) 523-6502.

Flagstaff has a population of about 70,000, rich in cultural diversity. Located at the base of the majestic San Francisco Peaks, Flagstaff is 140 miles north of Phoenix at intersection of Interstate 17 and Interstate 40.

The university is committed to a diverse and civil working and learning environment. All qualified candidates are encouraged to apply.

December 14, 2018
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Working With HUM 195

Working With HUM 195

This past semester, Special Collections and Archives (SCA) had the honor of partnering with Dr. Rebekah Pratt-Sturges and her 2 sections of HUM 195, Humanities in Action on some class-based instruction around primary source materials housed in SCA. We began working with Dr. Pratt-Sturges over the summer, working out how best to teach her students (mostly freshmen) about primary source materials; how such materials can be found and used, and; how to incorporate them into a presentation. The HUM 195 students working in groups were charged with creating an online exhibit (using Omeka as their exhibit platform) that told a story about an element of local Flagstaff or NAU history using primary source material.As both sections of the classes occurred on the same day (one in the afternoon and one in the evening, beyond SCA’s normal hours), some schedule adjustments had to be made. The plan was to schedule 8 sessions across 4 dates, with the first 4 being the introduction and orientation to Special Collections, including a tour. The reason that were four sessions for the first round of instruction was we needed to split the classes to keep the numbers small for the tour and introduction to SCA. All of the other sessions were to the full classes.We began instruction sessions in mid-October with the introductions and tours to show students what archives house and the material they might expect to access, plus orienting them to the culture of SCA, the unit’s hours, the reading room, and services. We followed those up with instructing the classes on using the Colorado Plateau Digital Archives, and Arizona Archives Online at the end of October that showed students our two key online research tools to access online and analog primary source material. Then, we finished with the last sessions talking about descriptive metadata and then touring the classes through the “Spender and Spectacle: the 100 Year Journey of Grand Canyon National Park” exhibit so that the student could see the results of primary source research as a finished exhibit project. Each session had generous time for Q & A.So, how did it work?In short, it worked well from our standpoint. The final student projects (listed below) speak for themselves. I don’t believe too many freshman casually learn about material in SCA in the course of their studies, and yet, here are nearly 50 students who not only have learned about the value of primary source material, but are able to independently find material in SCA to support their research (and many did so external to their scheduled instruction sessions) and integrate them into their projects.For SCA this was a bit of work. There was quite a bit of advanced planning, and meetings and e-mails to confirm that appropriate results and that solid information was delivered for each session. Each session required two SCA staffers. These 8 sessions represented 25% of our total fall semester course instruction load. There were also around 24 instances of individual and group research consultations, research recommendations/strategy sessions or interviews with individual students that were conducted in support of the students’ projects. Saying that, these are the sorts of collaborative, and synthetic teaching and learning events we really enjoy and value because of the results. For this course there were clear learning objectives, and ultimately students were successful in producing their final products. Finally, we were granted the opportunity to view the students’ presentations here in the library in room 249. This allowed us to see the fruits of (all of) our labors and judge the course results for ourselves.

Here are the student presentations from HUM 195 (and yes, a couple of links do appear to be broken):

Inside the Life of the Dome

NAU’s Leading Hands

Greek Life Through Time

How NAU Came to Be

The War Effort Reaches Flagstaff!

Women on the Rise

Veterans Oral History Experience at NAU

NAU From the Ground Up

New Family: Greek Life at NAU

50 Years of Growth and Prosperity: The Rise of Northern Arizona University

Logging with Louie

Lumberjack Football: More than a Sport

The Story Untold: Veterans at NAU

Behind the Architecture of Northern Arizona University: 1899-1966

Old Main: Snapshots through History

November 14, 2018
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on NAU Student Veterans Oral History Project

NAU Student Veterans Oral History Project

Arizona State Teachers College, Navy V-12 Program Drill Exercises, 1944. Photo courtesy Northern Arizona University, Cline Library, Special Collections and Archives, University Archives.

The Cline Library Special Collections and Archives partnered with NAU Student Veterans Services to develop an oral history project. The purpose of this oral history project is to record and preserve the unique perspectives of our diverse student veterans as they reflect upon their military service and subsequent transition to civilian life/academia. This project is one of the few in America attempting to capture the voices and stories of the student veterans.

NAU Student Veteran Services. Image courtesy of NAU Student Veteran Services.

Our student veterans experiences are unique and inspiring, and we want to preserve and make available their experiences for the historical record and for future student veterans. The project began in the spring semester of 2018, and to-date, we have captured eight oral histories of NAU veterans from World War II and the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.

Zachary Hamilton, Veteran, NAU Alumni, and Coordinator at NAU Student Veteran Services. Image courtesy of NAU Student Veteran Services.

We would like to highlight the first student veteran oral history we conducted as part of this project. Zachery Hamilton served two tours in Afghanistan in 2010-2011 and 2011-2012. Following his service, Zachary enrolled at NAU in 2013. While at NAU, Zach became involved with Student Veteran Services. His involvement eventually led to a full-time position in that department, where he works today. To see and listen to Zach’s interview, please visit the digital archives at the Cline Library here and here.

If there are any NAU student or alumni veterans that would like to participate in this project, we would like to hear from you. Please send us an email at Vets.OralHistory@nau.edu.

The NAU Student Veteran Oral History project is a collaborative effort between the Cline Library Special Collections and Archives, NAU Student Veteran Services, and most importantly, the student veterans. I would like to take a moment to thank all the participants in this project:

NAU Student Veterans

Zachary Hamilton

Seth Alexander

Ashley Peddie

Elena Giordano

Howard Wren (WW II, Navy V-12 veteran, interview coming soon!)

Amanda McNair (Interview coming soon!)

Joey Yazzie (Interview coming soon!)

NAU Veteran Services Staff (Pete Yanka, Laurie Jordan, Scott Heflin, and Zach Hamilton – interview coming soon!)

NAU Veteran Student Services

Pete Yanka, Director of NAU Student Veteran Services

Steve Smith, lecturer and interviewer, co-project manager, retired US NAVY

Laurie Jordan, Assistant Director of NAU Student Veteran Services

Zach Hamilton, FCB-VSC Coordinator

Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Peter Runge, Head of Special Collections and Archives and co-project manager

Cindy Summers, Library Specialist, Sr., Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Britney Bibeault, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Mowana Lomaomvaya, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Will McMullen, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Ryan Hitt, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Zach Mauck, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

Amelia Loeber, Student Assistant, Cline Library Special Collections and Archives

October 10, 2018
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on The Doing of the Thing…

The Doing of the Thing…

It’s that time of the year when SCA installs its annual exhibit. This year’s exhibit is titled “Splendor and Spectacle: The 100 Year Journey of the Grand Canyon National Park.” The past few weeks have been filled with excitement and a palpable buzz in the department as we being printing, matting, framing, and installing the pieces of the exhibit. This year, we’ve added a twist to our exhibits and we’re including two historic boats as part of the story.

Leslie “Buckethead” Jones, sitting in his aluminum kayak with a Go Pro prototype

Les Jones’ hand built kayak. Yes, he actually took this down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon!

Our good friends at the Grand Canyon National Park Museum (Kim and Colleen), were kind enough to loan us Leslie Jones’ 17’ aluminum kayak. For those of you unfamiliar with Les Jones, he was known on the river as “Buckethead Jones” and was the creator the Colorado River scroll map. Les built his aluminum kayak, running most rivers solo, and taking movies from a camera mounted on a football helmet, ergo “Buckethead.” By the early 1950s, Les began taping USGS maps together and filling in the missing contours. Les began using aerial photos, USGS maps and his own drawings and notes to trace and draw detailed maps on a scroll paper strips 7-10 inches wide. The maps were not waterproof and faded in sunlight, so they had to be protected from water and sunlight. Later his maps were copied onto waterproof mylar. Jones copied a river profile on the map above the river segments, labeling rapids and features on both. The maps contained rapid ratings, drawings of major rapids, Powell and other historic river camps, historic inscriptions and other detailed information. Les’ maps were some of the first maps to contain conservation messages.

The stunning Julius, sitting on a trailer in the parking lot of the Cline Library

River runner, author, boat builder, oar maker, and historian Brad Dimock loaned us his replica of the Buzz Holmstrom’s historic Julius. In 1937 Buzz built his own boat and rowed it down the Green and Colorado rivers by himself! Buzz made the 1,100 mile journey in 52 days, running nearly every rapid. Although Buzz’s Julius F has long since been reclaimed by nature, Brad Dimock used historic photographs, his river running knowledge, and his extraordinary boat building skills to build a replica. Brad has rowed over 4,000 miles in the Julius since building it 2002. He kindly loaned us his Julius for our exhibit and now it sits comfortably in Special Collections and Archives.

The man…Buzz Holmstrom, sitting on the deck of the Julius

Brad contemplating the latest chapter of the Julius

Now getting the Julius into the library and Special Collections and Archives was a bit of a feat. The Julius weighs in at 476 pounds and I don’t care how many librarians and archivists there are in the library, there’s no way we were going to be able to get it up to the second floor. We called on our new friends, the Flagstaff Firemen Movers. Eight, very strong off-duty firemen showed up and moved the Julius from the library parking lot through the first floor of the library, up the circular staircase and into Special Collections and Archives in 21 minutes. These guys were amazing and I think they enjoyed moving a replica historic boat instead of a refrigerator or piano for a change.

Flagstaff Firemen Movers – these guys are amazing!

We want to thank Kim and Colleen at the Grand Canyon National Park Museum and Brad Dimock for loaning these two amazing historical boats for our “Splendor and Spectacle” exhibit. We want to also thank the Flagstaff Firemen Movers for helping us get the Julius in Special Collections and Archives (see you guys in 11 ½ months when we need to bring it back to Brad!).

“Splendor and Spectacle” will be open to the public on Monday, October 15 and will be installed through September 2019.

October 8, 2018
by special collections & archives
Comments Off on Besties in the Archives!

Besties in the Archives!

SCA student assistants, Ryan Hitt and Zach Mauck, model the latest and hippest fashion in the archives. Ryan designed this limited edition, exclusive Special Collections and Archives sweatshirt. If you don’t have one, well, I guess you’re not cool enough…or you don’t work in SCA.