COLINA YAZZIE INTERVIEW

   

   

   [BEGIN SIDE 1]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

We're visiting with Colina Yazzie, at the Yazzie Indian

Arts Store in Gallup, New Mexico.  It's Wednesday,

January 26, 2000.  This is an interview that's part of

the United Indian Traders Association Oral History

Project.

   

   Cole:  Colina, we always like to start from the very

beginning.  Maybe you could tell us about your clans?

   

   Yazzie:  Okay.  My clan is T�tsohnii.  My father's

clan is Ta�neeszahnii and T�chii�nii b�sh�shch��n d��

T�d�ch��i�nii dashin�l�.  My mother is originally from

Pi�on, and my dad was from Steamboat, and raised around

Ganado and Steamboat area.

   

   Cole:  That's where you were raised?

   

   Yazzie:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Do you know when you were born?

   

   Yazzie:  I was born November 26, 1959.  My mother

said she had me, I think it was on Thanksgiving Day.

She was in the hospital and she remembers the nurses

bringing her food with turkey and a Thanksgiving meal

she had.

   One of the things that stands out in my mind about

my mother talking about when I was born was there were

nurses working in the hospital who had names.  A lot of

the Navajo ladies weren't able to give their children

names, so the nurses assisted in picking out names for

the children, more modern names that could be

pronounced by teachers�I guess making it easier for the

future, because we were expected to go to school.

   

   Cole:  What were your parents' names?

   

   Yazzie:  My mother's name is Mary Sadie…  Her

maiden name is Johnson.  Her last name is Gorman.  And

my father's name was James Gorman, Jr.

   

   Cole:  And what are some of your memories of growing

up in that area?

   

   Yazzie:  As a little kid, I remember living out in

Steamboat near my grandfather and my grandmother's

place, which was near the Balakai Mesa.  I remember

having brothers and sisters, so I spent a lot of time

with my�it seems like more time with my brothers than I

did my sisters�of course, probably because I avoided

the household chores.  So I spent a lot more time

outside with my brothers, riding horses and climbing up

on the mesas and doing different things.  A lot of

times my brothers would get into the waterhole and go

swimming.  I don't remember ever doing that, but I

remember them getting into the waterhole and swimming.

But I did ride the horse a lot, and had to ride it out

to the watering hole to water them.  Didn't herd sheep

a lot, but my grandmother always had sheep.  And my

mother did have�her and my dad split up when I was

about eleven years old.  She then started her own herd,

and she still tends her herd, and she still does her

weaving.

   Everyday life, you know, you had to have groceries.

There were trips to the trading post:  when my mom

finished a rug, we would go to the trading post and

sell the rug and bring groceries back and things like

that.  My dad raised horses and he also broke horses.

So as soon as those horses were trained enough or

broken enough, then he would let us ride and ride and

ride until they were used to having people on their

back, and I liked that.

   Our first home was a hogan, a very small hogan.  I

had four brothers:  two older brothers and two younger

brothers.  I had three sisters, one older and two

younger.  I do have a much older half-sister, but she

has a different mom, and we both have the same dad.

But all of my mother's children, we lived in one hogan

together when we were children.  Our first school was

going to the boarding schools.  The first school that I

went to was Kinlichee Boarding School, up until I was

about third grade.

   

   Cole:  Where was that at?

   

   Yazzie:  Just southeast of Ganado, maybe about ten

miles.  I remember when I first went to school, I was

so excited, but I never knew that I was going to get

really homesick.  (laughter)  I got really excited

about going to school, and then later on found out that

my mom wasn't going to be back for quite a while.  I've

always been really close to my mom, and never wanted to

be away from her for long.  But that first time I was

away from her for quite a while I really missed her.  I

think she dropped us off maybe in August, and when we

were allowed to go home for a longer period of time,

she would come back and pick us up.  When she did, that

was like Thanksgiving, the short vacation.  I remember

her wearing a Pendleton blanket when she came in.  I

started crying and I couldn't let go of her.

   When my mother and my father split up when I was

about eleven, my mother sent me on the placement

program, which was in Utah, and I lived with foster

parents.  They still are like natural parents to me,

and their names are Joyce and Kay Clark [phonetic

spellings].  They live in St. George now.  At the time,

they were living in Provo, Utah.  Then I had to go away

every year to go back up for school, and I really

missed my mom a lot.  When I came home, as big as I

was, I used to sleep with my mom all the time.

   After my mom and dad split up, life really changed

for us.  My dad was no longer with us, and we moved out

of the area where we lived for years, and moved to

Steamboat.  When I was twelve years old, I started

working for the Steamboat Trading Post part-time.  A

guy named Jerry Foutz was operating�he had the trading

post at that time, and I worked for him just cleaning

and doing different things.  On Saturdays I would go in

half the day and help out.  And I did that, that first

summer when I was  twelve years old.  That was probably

the first contact that I had with really working with a

trading post, besides my mom taking her rugs to the

trading post.

   

   Cole:  And what trading post did your mom take her

rugs to before you moved to Steamboat?

   

   Yazzie:  Oh, she took her rugs to Ganado, the

Hubbell Trading Post.  At the time, Bill Young was

managing the store, and it was always fun to go there.

It's a beautiful place, because where we lived, there

weren't any trees for miles.  So when we went to

Ganado, there were all these cottonwood trees, and it

was so beautiful there.  I always enjoyed going there

with my mom.  She would buy food, and we would get

snacks that we didn't get every day.  It was nice.  We

then had to go home and take food home to our families.

   I tried to help her to prepare her rugs.  Every time

I asked her, you know, "I need …" something, she

would tell me, "You'd better start carding wool, then."

That was the job I didn't like (chuckles) but I had to

do it.  She would give me raw wool, and I would comb

the wool out.  There's a lot of dirt that comes out of

it.  I would pile them up in the box and she would

later spin it and use it for her weaving.

   When I got out of high school, I moved to Dallas,

Texas, where I was supposed to take training to work

with the airlines.  When I completed the training and

was ready to go find a job, then I came home to visit

my family and I missed them a lot.  One of my brothers

told me, "We haven't seen you in a long time, and we

missed you.  As Navajo, we always stay close to our

families, and you might think about coming home and

working close to home."  I really thought about it a

lot, and I did miss my family, so maybe it was about a

year later after that, I moved back to Ganado and

Steamboat and started working at the Hubbell Trading

Post, where I've always liked being.  Whenever I went

to visit, it was such a beautiful place, and I did my

work in there.  The only few places that I guess where

I could use my experience and training, working with

the airlines, had to do a lot with customers, and just

relations�you know, how you do business with customers.

And so I started working there when I was about twenty

years old.

   When I first started working, I was just a sales

clerk, and slowly got promoted to� I would go out and

do interpretations, like interpreting what the rugs

were, and designs, and how to care for them, and how

they're woven.  And visitors who came to the trading

post would really enjoy that.  And then I did another

one on Navajo jewelry, then Zuni jewelry, and Hopi

jewelry.  And then all combined.  And I would go out,

and that's the next step.  They gave me a promotion to

being an interpretive aide, and I worked as an

interpretive aide for about two or three years, and

then got promoted to assistant managing�Bill Malone's

assistant�and worked there as assistant manager until I

left the trading post.  That was about five years ago

now�over five years ago, almost six years ago.

   And all during that time I had three children.  My

oldest son is Scott, and the next one is Felicia, and

the youngest one is Christopher, who wasn't born until

we moved here, and he's five years old now.  As soon as

we moved here, my husband always talked about maybe we

should start a business, because we have the knowledge

and we know about the art.  It was a hard time to

start, because I had just had the little one, and then

we just made a big move from Arizona to here.  But he

decided, well, we're just gonna do it!

   Our first business location was up on Hill Street,

which is just about four blocks south of where we're at

now.  We started slowly.  We just only had a few, maybe

one showcase of jewelry and some rugs that were on

consignment from different places.  We didn't get many

customers, it was very slow there.  But we traveled to

a lot of different shows and we met people and found

out during the year when business was slow, they still

called us and wanted things.  So if it weren't for

them, we wouldn't be in business right now.

   And Bill Malone really helped us out a lot, too.

Every time we needed assistance, needed to sell

something, we always went to him and he was very kind

to help us, and always purchased something from us.

   And then later I worked…  Since the business was

very slow, then I worked with the Richardsons, just

down the street from here, for about maybe a couple of

years.  That was a part-time job for me, and we still

had the business and still sent things out through the

mail.  About last year was when we really�you know, the

kids were a little bit older, and they really didn't

need a lot of the attention they needed when they were

smaller.  So we decided we were going to try to do it

full-time, and it turned out we still needed to do

shows, and still needed to go and take care of the

kids.  And so the business, our family came first.  If

we had to close to go for appointments or go travel

somewhere to sell something, or do shows, we'd just

close the store and went.  And every year has been a

little bit better, a little bit better, business has

been building.  So this year, since we moved here,

changing our name from Yazzie Trading Company, to

Yazzie's Indian Art, and then moving to this location

where we've always wanted to be, we expect business to

be even better.  So we're thinking about opening full-

time, and the kids can come in and run the business

with us, now that they're a little bit bigger and don't

need a lot of attention.  They can just kind of be here

when we're here.  It works out for us.  [I get] a lot

of support from my husband, because he's the one that

when I first told him that I would like to have a

store, he said, "Well, let's just do it!"  And I'm

really glad that we did, and we hope to have a

successful business and things continue to get even

better, as they have within the last five years.

   

   Cole:  I'm gonna back up a little bit.  When your

mom used to go sell rugs, describe how that…  Did

you ever watch how the trade was transacted?

   

   Yazzie:  A lot of times when she went in to sell her

rug, she would show it to them, she would lay the rug

out, the trader would look at it, and they would

always…  At that time, we didn't really need money

for light bills, electricity bills, and things like

that.  Most of it, a lot of the things that we needed

were there at the trading post.  So my mom would

just�the trader knew that she would need food,

groceries, whatever, so what he offered was, "I'll give

you a certain amount in cash, and then the rest, maybe

you can go in and buy what you need."  And that's the

way the trading took place back then.  But now, she

still does the same.  She goes into the trading post at

Hubbell's and Bill will let her buy food, and he'll

still give her cash whenever she goes to sell her rugs.

   

   Cole:  And then were you involved then in trades

when you were working at Hubbell, but on the other

side?

   

   Yazzie:  Yes, I did the same thing with a lot of the

weavers that came in.  They would have rugs for sale,

and I would give them some cash and some trade whenever

I purchased their rugs.  Because of the weavers there

at the trading posts, I became very interested in

weaving then, and slowly started�it has taken me about

twenty years to really get a better quality rug.  At

the beginning I was not getting the quality that I

wanted.  It's just experience that brings that, and it

takes years to develop that skill to put out really

nice-quality rugs.  I'm finding out that I really can't

keep any in inventory like I would like, but always

have one on the loom, like my grandmother and my mother

did years ago; and occasionally get special orders, and

try to get those out as I promise them I will have out

by a certain time.  And that's always hard, because you

never know what's going to come up, and what you need

to do.  Sometimes it ends up longer than you had

expected.

   

   Cole:  Did your mother have a specialty, or would

she weave whatever the trader wanted?

   

   Yazzie:  When I was a little girl, I remember her

weaving the Y�ii rugs, but she has changed slowly.

When I was around about twelve years old, she wove the

stripe designs, more of a Chinle style designs.  And

that stuck in my mind.  When I started working with

Hubbell Trading Post, I thought that was the only

design all the weavers wove, was a Chinle rug.  When I

saw all these different designs, I had to learn about

the different styles.  There was a different feel about

each of 'em, and it was really an interesting thing for

me to learn.  And her style has changed again to more

of a Klagetoh.  She uses a lot of grey in the

background, and then she uses some red and black and

white colors, the geometric designs.

   

   Cole:  What prompted her to change her design?

   

   Yazzie:  I don't know what it is.  It probably has

to do with being able to sell certain styles, because

she's near Ganado, and she does sell her rugs at

Ganado, so I think she was encouraged by one of the

Bills�Bill Malone or Bill Young�to weave the Ganado

style rugs.  They sell more of those rugs, since

they're in that area, and there was a higher demand for

that style of weaving.  I think there still is, because

she continues to weave that style all the time.

   

   Cole:  And who are some of the weavers that you

remember that you worked with at Hubbell�anybody in

particular?

   

   Yazzie:  At Hubbell's?

   

   Cole:  Yeah.

   

   Yazzie:  When I first came to Hubbell's, there was a

lady named Sadie Curtis [phonetic spelling], who is a

very good friend of mine now, we've traveled to

different shows together�her demonstrating weaving, and

I doing presentations and helping with sales.  May Jim

[phonetic spelling] who is deceased�she was a

diabetic�she was a great weaver.  Evelyn Curley

[phonetic spelling] and Mary Lee, Helen Davis.  Those

were the weavers that were there at that time.  They

had about five or six weavers, and the last time I was

there, there was only one weaver, and they were trying

to find a new weaver who would weave full-time,

demonstrating.  So I know it's harder to find weavers

that are willing to sit eight hours a day to weave.

I've been asked to do different demonstrations, and it

is hard to sit for a long time and demonstrate weaving.

But all of those weavers at Hubbell's have really, at

times have given me ideas how to weave.  Just sitting

there and watching them weave was just amazing, how

perfectly they wove their rugs.  It just encouraged me

to do some of it.

   

   Cole:  Ordinarily, like, say, your mother, how much

time would she spend weaving in a given day?

   

   Yazzie:  Oh, very little, unless she's coming to the

end of a rug.  Then she would really want to get it

done.  But at the beginning, she'll spend maybe a

couple of hours in the morning and a couple of hours in

the evening, but it was never full-time, because she

had all these other things to do.  The first thing she

would do when she'd get up would be fix breakfast for

the family.  Then she would do other things, like she

needed to wash, or she needed to go and take care of

the sheep, or other things that she had to do.  She'd

sit back down for a couple of hours again in the

afternoon, and then she'd fix something to eat again

for the evening.  Not often did I see her weaving late

at night, until she had about maybe two or three inches

left on the loom.  Then she'd really go at it!

(laughter)  She was getting pretty anxious to take it

in and sell it.  She'd take it off the loom, we'd help

her undo the bindings at the edges of the rugs, and

she'd lay it out, and we'd have to do all the trimming

and take all the little extra yarn [pieces] that are

still sticking out, clip 'em and clean it before she

rolls it up to take it to the trading post.  All of it

really takes a lot of time.

   

   Cole:  Would your mother ever get commissions for

rugs?  I know some traders told us they'd actually

extend credit towards a rug.  Or would your mother just

wait until she was finished?

   

   Yazzie:  She still does.  She's done that for years.

She goes to the trading post and she'll charge things

on her account, and then when she finishes her rug,

she'll go in and instead of picking out all the

groceries there, when she brings in the rug, she's

paying her bill, and then getting some cash for her

rug.

   

   Cole:  I'm sort of interested, with your mom, has

the mobility of the Navajo people affected her as much,

say, as it has you, with transportation and stuff?

Does she come into Gallup much?

   

   Yazzie:  The more traditional people, they don't

seem to really want to go out as much.  They would

rather be around their traditional people.  They'll

spend more time going to maybe ceremonies, where they

feel comfortable.  I've heard some ladies say when they

do go into places like a larger town, they feel

uncomfortable.  They do take care of the business that

they need to, but then they would rather be home.  My

mother would rather be home.  She'll occasionally like

to go out and just have a different dinner than what

she normally has at home, and maybe that's only a

couple of times a month, but she would rather be home.

She can't leave home for long, because of her sheep,

too.  She loves her sheep.  She'll go somewhere and

she'll worry about her sheep at the end of the day.

She can't spend the night anywhere else.

   

   Cole:  Does she do her own herding still then, or

does she have anybody to help her?

   Yazzie:  She's sixty-six years old now, so when

she's going somewhere, she'll put hay out in the corral

for the sheep.  When it's real cold, she'll put hay out

for the sheep.  When it's warm enough for her to go out

and watch the sheep, she'll dress for the weather and

go out and stay close to her sheep.  And the sheep do

pretty well on their own, too.  They go out and graze,

and she'll just watch them, and when it's time for them

to come back in, they automatically just come back to

the house, to the corral, and all she has to do is just

get 'em in and close the gate.

   

   Steiger:  Does she still card and spin her own wool?

   

   Yazzie:  No, she buys a lot of yarns from different

stores that carry the yarns.  She buys most of that to

weave her rugs.  Occasionally she'll card some wool,

but not as often as she used to when we were little

kids.  I guess maybe it was our help that really�she

was able to use more of the hand-carded wool.  And the

hand-carded wool is not appreciated as much, because of

the lumpiness of the yarn; and when it's spun by

machine, it's very smooth, the colors are all uniform,

and so it makes a nicer rug.

   

   Cole:  Do you have a special rug design that you

like to weave?

   

   Yazzie:  The only two designs that really strike me

is the Ganado red colors, the old style, the Ganado

red, with a lot of red in the background.  I've been

trying to use some finer yarns to make finer rugs, and

I've done that within the last couple of years.  I've

been able to weave some more intricate designs.  Every

year I'm striving to do better and better.  Hopefully

one of these years I'll try my hand at maybe a

tapestry�but I'm not ready yet.  I will be in maybe a

few more years�a little bit more experience.

   

   Cole:  Explain how a tapestry rug differs from just

a regular.

   

   Yazzie:  It's the fineness of the yarn.  The yarn is

very, very thin�almost as thin as a sewing thread.

Different people consider a tapestry starting…  Some

consider a tapestry, there has to be so much weft to

the inch.  And I think you do well even if you have

eighty wefts to the inch.  Some say a tapestry isn't

until you reach 120 wefts to the inch, and eighty, I

think, is pretty good, it's very thin.

   

   Cole:  And a weft would be just one thread?

   

   Yazzie:  A weft would be one thread.

   

   Cole:  Wow.

   

   Yazzie:  And that would really take a lot of time to

weave.  I think that's why you don't get 'em in large

sizes, but small sizes, maybe a foot-and-a-half by two

feet is about the basic size they come in, the

tapestries.

   

   Cole:  How do you feel like you and Raymond have

been accepted as traders?

   

   Yazzie:  I like the idea, because we're able to help

our own people, Indian artists, to sell their work.

And at this time, it's needed, there's people that need

to be there, stores that need to be there to help these

different artists that want to sell their work.  Every

day we have Zuni people.  Now that we're living in

Gallup, we have Zunis even come in to sell jewelry and

their carvings and fetishes; and a lot of Navajo people

who come in and sell their work.  We don't trade like

we used to years ago.  They have bills to pay.  Like I

told you years ago, it was basically you didn't have

water bills, electricity bills, and different bills

that had to be paid.  Now they're wanting more of cash,

just to pay those bills.  So when somebody brings

something in, we don't do any trading, unless they ask.

We just give 'em cash for what they've made.

   

   Cole:  And it sounds like you also do some

consignment?

   

   Yazzie:  We do.  We have friends, we have artist

friends that we've met through the years.  For

instance, one of the young guys that just got started

maybe about three or four years ago, he used to live in

Flagstaff, his name is Darrell Begay.  He came here to

Gallup because his wife was doing…  Oh, what do they

call it?  She finished her school at NAU, but she had

to come and do some, what do they call it?

   

   Cole:  Like an internship?

   

   Yazzie:  Yeah, an internship with Rejoba [phonetic

spelling].  So they moved here into town, and Darrell

came out and visited us, and he came to visit the

store.  When we first moved in here, we told him he

could pick a spot to show his jewelry.  He does a lot

of the different shows, so he's always trying to keep

inventory.  Instead of keeping inventory at home where

it just sits until the next show, we told him maybe we

could sell some in the store, and he brought some in,

and he decorated the showcases really nice.  A couple

of days ago, a lady came in and liked one of his

pieces.  I called him, because the bracelet that she

liked didn't fit right, and he came in and took her

measurements of her wrist and made the bracelet for

her, and she was very happy to meet him, and to have

the bracelet made just for her.  So it works out.  We

don't mind introducing the customers to the different

artists that we work with.

   

   Cole:  Are you still doing a lot of shows?

   

   Yazzie:  Only in the springtime�we have three shows

that we do.  My husband has the Heard Museum show.  We

have another show with the Dawns [phonetic spelling] in

Phoenix.  And we have the Clark County Heritage Museum,

which is in Henderson, a suburb of Las Vegas.  Those

are about the only three shows that we're able to do

anymore.  My husband only can do a couple of shows a

year.  He has a hard time keeping up with his orders,

and getting inventory together for him is hard, because

the work that he does is very time-consuming.  Even one

piece would take three or four weeks to finish.

   

   Cole:  Describe for us a little bit about how going

to a show works, as far as what you have to do, to do

that.  It seems like that's kind of become a big part

of the modern trader.

   

   Yazzie:  Oh, when you have inventory that includes

rugs and pottery and jewelry and all of that, at the

most you'd like to only do one a month, because three

within one month, or even two, it's too much.  It's a

lot of work, because they have to be packed.  The

potteries have to be packed.  Every time we do a show,

we take our miniature case with us, which is glass, and

we've broken it a couple of times.  The packing part of

it, and just hauling it from here to there, depending

on the distance that you have to drive.  Once you leave

here, you've got to get it there, either without

stopping, or with just short breaks, and be sure it's

in a secure place.  It's very hard, and then a lot of

times we travel with our family.  The school that they

go to, they don't mind having them go to the shows, and

they always catch up on their work, but it's hard on

the children, too.  We usually have one of our

relatives who travels with us to take care of the kids

when we go to the shows.

   Once a month is good enough, but we seem to…  The

three shows that we do just happen to be in March.  We

have done other shows, too, that were in the

springtime.  It seems like they're always in the

springtime, and early January maybe.  But we've

eliminated some shows, so we can stay home and spend

more time at home.

   

    Cole:  You mentioned at Hubbell you became

interested in Indian jewelry. Tell us a little bit

about that, if you could.

   

   Yazzie:  When I was a little kid, it was something

that everybody collected.  My mom loves jewelry, she

always has to have a pin on her shirt�at least that.

Even when she's around the house, she always has a

beautiful pin to wear on her shirt.  When she goes

somewhere to sell her rug or goes to the store or to a

ceremony, she'll put on a necklace and bracelets.  When

I was growing up, at times when it was my birthday or

something, she'd give me jewelry.  Some of the smaller

pieces I still have.  The way she introduced jewelry to

me, it just stayed with me for years.  I knew that she

loved those pieces, and she wanted me to wear them, and

it was just a tradition for us to have jewelry.  I

still do love jewelry, and appreciate it very

much�especially the pieces that are more difficult to

make.  I've noticed that there are some pieces that

take more time, and they're harder to make, and those

pieces I really appreciate.  And there are pieces that

are collected�for instance, stones that you can't find

anymore.  You see those pieces, and have to keep 'em.

May not be able to find them anymore later, they're

collectible pieces.  And there are still a lot of good

artists who make nice pieces.

   

   Cole:  Were there many jewelers in the Ganado area?

   

   Yazzie:  There were not a lot of jewelers in the

Ganado area.  A lot of the ones who came to sell were

from around the Gallup area, it seems like, and this is

probably the center of where a lot of the jewelry is

made.  My husband is originally from this area, so he

did.  And that was a tradition for his family�his mom

and dad were silversmiths, and when he was ten years

old, that's what he wanted to do, to be a silversmith.

And I think that's how the tradition has carried on

with the silversmiths.

   

   Cole:  How did you meet Raymond?

   

   Yazzie:  I actually met one of his bracelets first,

(laughter) and fell in love with that.  (laughter)  I

was at the ceremonial in Gallup when I was about twenty-

two.  It was a couple of years after I started working

for Hubbell's and started learning all about jewelry

and rugs.  I went to the ceremonial, and at the Joe

Tanner booth, he had a beautiful piece of jewelry, it

just caught my eye.  It was silver and had tiny little

almost like needlepoint, beautifully-shaped stones, one

right after another, in such perfect rows.  I hated to

ask Joe to show it to me, because I knew I didn't have

the money to buy it, but it was like maybe, maybe I

might be able to afford it.  But he took it out for me

and I looked at it and I asked him how much it was.  I

don't remember what the price was�it was much more than

what I was able to afford, I couldn't buy it�but I

remember it in my mind.  I was at Hubbell's and Raymond

came to the trading post one time, and it just

connected, he was the artist who made that bracelet,

because at the time he came in, he brought another

piece into the trading post at Hubbell's.  "That's the

artist who made that piece that I liked!"  He used to

sell to the trading post, and in about 1978, maybe, we

became friends and got married in 1988.

   

   Cole:  So when you think back through your years

involved with trading and Indian arts and crafts, what

are some of your favorite memories?

   

   Yazzie:  One of the most exciting things for me is

to meet the artists who make the pieces�especially

pieces that are very well made.  I think when you see

something so beautiful, you want to meet the person,

you're curious how they look, how they speak, just

anything about 'em, what kind of personality they have.

It's one of the things that really I enjoy.  We had a

guy come in yesterday.  I bought this barrette.  I

can't remember where it was I bought this barrette a

couple of years ago, and I thought, "Wow, this is

really, really nice work, and I would like to meet the

artist."  Yesterday he came in and I just, "Wow!  I

would like to buy some of those barrettes that I've

seen for years.  I'm really happy to meet you, and I

would like to carry some of your pieces."  That's one

of the neatest things about being in the Indian art

business, to meet the artists.  I really enjoyed that,

and it's a big thing for me.  Clarence Lee and Ray

Tracey  and a lot of artists.  Ray has a real good

personality, and Clarence Lee is kind of quiet, but a

lot of his personality comes out in his jewelry with

traditional storyteller bracelets and rings and things

like that.  The jewelry, the way it's made, it tells a

lot about the person too.  And when you meet 'em,

they're really kind of what you thought of the person.

   

   Cole:  So what do you see as the future of trading

or the Indian art business?

   

   Yazzie:  I have to admit that I think the old-time

trading is really gonna fade out, because of all the

computers and everything has just become more

modernized.  Having Indian art stores and galleries, I

think it's very good.  Every day, the weavers, the

artists, are doing better all the time, and even Indian

artisans are going into business on their own to sell

their work, and they're doing very well.  I think it's

very good.

   

   Cole:  If you could tell an Anglo about what they

should understand about Navajos, what would you tell

them?

   

   Yazzie:  About Navajos?

   

   Cole:  Yeah, just about your culture, your religion.

   

   Yazzie:  It's very hard from my point of view.  The

only time I try to describe or either tell about�if

they've run into certain situations where they have

questions about what the person was trying to do or

say, or the way they were treated, then I try to

explain to them how the Navajo culture is.  Growing up

at the time that I did, I'm able to understand the more

modern ways of life.  And then at the [same] time, I

also remember the traditional ways of life.  So there

are two.  A person may�I've known of friends and

relatives who have taken more traditional ways of life,

therefore their ways are different in approaching who

they talk to, who they deal with.  And there are some

that are very modern ways of life, and they also have

their ways of dealing with the public and people that

they meet.  So that's kind of a two-party thing, where

it's one or the other, or both.  It's hard to describe.

   Traditional way of life, a lot of things are not

brought out into the open.  For instance, there were

some missionaries who came (chuckles) and visited a

Navajo family, and these missionaries came there and

they came to visit us.  We were asking about their

experience, having to go to these Navajo homes.  This

one missionary talked about how much he enjoyed being

around the people and being invited to their

traditional ceremonies.  And one of the things that

really stood out in his mind was, he was invited to a

baby's first laugh.  And when he got there, he said he

was invited to come and butcher sheep, and he did.  He

said it was interesting how the whole thing is done.

The family was very traditional, and they did the first

laugh party.  But not everybody is open to doing things

like that.  For instance, there are probably other

people who wouldn't, if they were asked to help butcher

a sheep, they wouldn't do it.  They would just maybe

leave, or really wouldn't want to be there.  So there's

people who accept the traditional ways of life, and

then there are others who don't want to get involved.

   We had a friend come the other day into the store,

and he said the first time he went to meet some

Indians, he said, "I went to meet these Indians, and I

was thinking I was getting myself in trouble, because I

was curious, I wanted to see what they were doing."  It

was a ceremony that was taking place, and he was going

up there, and he was by himself, and he thought he

would get himself in trouble by going there alone, not

being invited.  But it turned out that the people

didn't mind having him there.  He said he really had

tears in his eyes; although they had modern lives to

live, they were still keeping their traditions.  And it

was really, really sad that he was thinking that, he

said there's some that fade out, and some people who

never keep their traditions.  And some are really

fighting to keep their traditions.  He said it was

really a sad thing that he saw.  He's starting to learn

more about the different tribes, and he's supportive of

keeping traditions alive.  He said it was just a whole

new world that opened up to him when he went to see the

ceremony.

   

   Cole:  If you could change your life in any way,

would you?

   

   Yazzie:  If I were to change my life in any way?

   

   Cole:  Uh-huh.

   

   Yazzie:  The first thing that comes to my mind is if

I could, I would like for my children to speak Navajo.

I would like to have them speak Navajo and learn more

about the traditions.  Because of the way I grew up, it

was very hard for me to teach them the traditional

ways, and to even teach them to speak their own

language.  They know very little.  They know some

words, but they don't know how to speak their own

native language.

   I really wouldn't change a lot, because so far I've

really enjoyed my life, just the way it's been.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any questions, Lew?

   

   Steiger:  A couple.  Early on you said when you were

born at the hospital, there were these ladies that were

helping name all the kids so they'd have a proper name.

Did your family just call you the Anglo name?  Is that

what everybody called you?

   

   Yazzie:  The only people that mentioned my name, I

guess, were my family at home, when I was a little kid,

and they called me "Leen."  And that was just short

for…  You know how somebody would have a name, maybe

Raymond�his family called him Raymond, and some call

him Ray, and I call him Ray.  It's just short for

Raymond.  But they called me Leen, when I was at home.

   This is funny.  I don't know if I should tell you

about this, but when I was a kid, when the nurse named

me at the hospital, my name was Celina, on paper, on

the birth certificate:  C-E-L-I-N-A.  And when I went

to school, whoever maybe typed my name, the card, they

slipped in an "O" instead of an "E."  So my birth name

was Celina, but it was changed to Colina when I went to

school, and I stuck with Colina 'cause I like that

better.

   

   Cole:  You had mentioned that your mom taught you to

weave.  Did you learn as a young girl, or later as you

were older?

   

   Yazzie:  I saw rugs on looms�my grandmother and my

mother's�and always thought that I knew how.  All I had

to do was set up a loom and I would make something.

But it was not as easy as I thought it would be.  I was

in Dallas when I was asked to demonstrate weaving, and

I told them I could do it, and I thought I could, but

when I really started to set up the loom and started to

weave, it was a whole different thing.  I didn't have

anybody there, nobody knew how to weave, so I had to do

it all on my own.  My rug started out to be this wide,

and when I finished it, it was about like this, and

nobody was there to guide me and train me or anything,

how exactly it was supposed to be done.  Until I came

home, and I knew how hard it was, and I wanted to learn

the right way, and have somebody there to tell me what

I was doing wrong.  But even then, it's more of

something you learn on your own.  You can guide and

teach a person how to set up a loom, and you can be

given yarn, but how you set your yarn, how you work

your tension, how you design your rugs is really all up

to you.  The more time you take to practice, the faster

you come to make better quality rugs.  It's taken me

twenty years to get as far as I've gone.  I would say

even within the last five years is when I feel good

about the rugs that I've woven.  But before then, it's

not something that I was real proud of.  (laughs)

   

   Cole:  Are any of your children…

   

   [END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

   

   Cole:  This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona

University.  This is Tape 2 of an interview with Colina

Yazzie.  It's Wednesday, January 26, 2000.  Also

present in the room is Lew Steiger.  I was just going

to ask you if any of your children were interested in

becoming weavers or artists.

   

   Yazzie:  My daughter is becoming interested in

weaving.  I set up a loom for her and she works on it

when she gets interested.  I really don't want to push

her.  I believe that when you're pushed into something,

you lose interest in it.  So when she wants to, I let

her sit down and weave.  She does have one small one

started, and hopefully she'll continue to become more

interested, where she'll do that when she grows older.

   

   Cole:  Did you learn any stories behind the

different rugs from your mother?

   

   Yazzie:  No, I did not.  She didn't talk about the

designs in the rugs.  The designs in the rugs I learned

about when I started working at the Hubbell Trading

Post.

   

   Cole:  And one thing I'm sort of interested in,

being on kind of the main drag in Gallup,  we've heard

that there's a lot of imitation Indian arts that are

coming into areas like Gallup and stuff like that.  Do

you see much of that here?

   

   Yazzie:  Personally, I don't go out to a lot of the

different shops here in town, so I don't really get to

see much of it.  And a lot of what we buy is just

people that walk in, we buy from.  I hear there are

some around, but I've never seen any in any of the

stores.

   

   Cole:  I didn't know if that had much impact on your

business or not.

   

   Yazzie:  Well, we try to deal with individual

artists and introduce them, and let the customers know

that they are actual artists that are living where they

live, and that we know them personally, and we're able

to sell the pieces better than just to buy a bunch of

things from somebody, not knowing who it was made by.

   

   Steiger:  I don't know if� you know�  doing this

project, we've talked to a lot of these traders�.

We've heard real different opinions about when the DNA

came in, and went to regulate the trading and all that

stuff.  There's different points of view.  I wonder,

were you aware of all that stuff?

   

   Yazzie:  I've never had to deal with anything like

that.

   

   Cole:  Yeah, that was the pawn, the whole change in

pawn regulations in the early seventies.

   

   Yazzie:  I did hear about it.  I know there are some

people that weren't able to take pawn anymore.  The

pawn business is really a real touchy subject,

especially for the Navajo people, because of valuables,

things that they've had in pawn that have gone dead,

and not being able to get it back.  So I really…

There've been questions where if we will be interested

in going into the pawn business, but my answer has

always been no, because of that.  I wouldn't feel right

selling a piece of jewelry that belonged to somebody,

and knowing that they just left it here for a short

time and they would be back for it.  It would be hard

for me to put it up for sale.

   

   Steiger:  But there was a lot of that, that went on?

   

   Yazzie:  Well, they sign the pawn ticket, knowing

that by a certain time they would be put out for sale,

but the traditional Navajo people, they were never

really limited to time.

   

   Steiger:  Not really lookin' at the calendar.

   

   Yazzie:  Yes.  When they were able to get their

money together and go in and pick it up, that's the way

they dealt.  Having a time limit on certain things is,

I think, hard for them still to understand.

   

   Cole:  How about when you were a child?  Did your

parents ever pawn items to the reservation trading

posts?

   

   Yazzie:  On the reservation, I don't know if they

did.  I don't remember ever seeing my mom going in to

pawn anything until maybe in my twenties, I did see her

going in to pawn things.  She still does pawn things, I

know.

   

   Cole:  I was going to say, we've heard, it seems

like there's quite a difference, at least how pawn

happened on the reservation versus in a border town.  I

don't know if you were aware of that.

   

   Yazzie:  No, I'm not aware of it.

   

   Cole:  A lot of traders have told us that the people

that were in the isolated posts on the reservation

tended to hang onto pawn even when it went dead,

because you have a limited pool of customers, versus in

town, it was easier for them to sell the dead pawn.

That's the story we get.  The truth lies in the middle

somewhere probably.

   

   Yazzie:  I think no matter what pawn shop it is, I

think if you know the people, and you've dealt with 'em

for a long time, they're very lenient and you're able

to talk to them and to keep your pawn.

   

   Steiger:  I don't know if I should ask this.  What

we're trying to do is kind of set down this historic

record on the big picture for the long haul.  This

might not be a good question, I'll try to say it right.

In general, it's hard to tell from talking to these

guys with this thing with the DNA when they came in and

regulated those guys.  Some people say there were a lot

of traders that were out there that were out of

control, and they were taking advantage of the people

that they were supposed to be taking care of.  And then

there's a lot of other people that say, "No, the

traders were out there doing a really good job," and

all that stuff that happened there in the mid-seventies

kind of did-in the old trading posts.  I don't know, do

you have an opinion on that?

   

   Yazzie:  Well, I don't really have an opinion on how

the traders dealt, because I really didn't deal with

them, but I do know that the Navajo have, or Indians

have, hard feelings toward traders, and that was the

reason why we changed our name from Trading Company to

Indian Art, because we notice when we attend a lot of

different shows, other artists were approaching us.

We've even been called a trader, which I guess is a bad

name.  At times we were asked if we really were

traders.  It didn't really mean anything to us at the

time when we were being asked these questions, until it

came to me that the "trader" name wasn't really a good

name, because when artists would come to us and say,

"Are you really a trading company?" and we started

trying to find out really what a trading company is.

They dealt with pawn�the trading posts.  They dealt

with having to sell something, not getting enough for

it, and they have some hard feelings about the old

trading posts and trading companies.  That's what we

found out, so we decided we're gonna change our name,

because we don't have pawn, and we don't do trading

like we used to at Hubbell, where I used to offer goods

and hard cash.  We didn't do that.  So we're more just

introducing art to people who come to visit.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else you'd like to add?

   

   Yazzie:  What I've learned about Indian art has

really been a great thing to learn, since the time I

moved to Hubbell and started working for the trading

post.  It's a really wonderful art that the Indians

have, and people who travel and visit and come to our

store, you meet a lot of 'em that have that

appreciation for the art.  Not very often are they

introduced to the artists.  At times, when even my

husband, people were trying to find out who the artist

was, they've asked the business owners and they weren't

able to give any of that information.  About four years

ago, there was a guy, he said he'd been all over, he

went store-to-store in Gallup asking who this artist

was, "I want to meet this artist, and I would like to

have a special bracelet made for us," him and his wife.

He met a Navajo person, and they knew Ray and told them

where we lived, and one day I heard a hard knock on my

door, and I opened the door, and there's this guy.

(laughs)  I opened up the door and he said, "Does

Raymond Yazzie live here?"  And I said, "He lives here,

but he has a shop at another location.  I could have

you meet him."  He says, "Well, I want to order

something from him, and I would like to see him."  This

guy's really serious!  So we got our stuff together and

we just asked him to follow us.  We drove to Ray's

shop, and they met and made a special order.

   For years Ray has been trying to get out and to do

shows and carry his own work, and he was not able to

until about maybe three or four years ago.  Ever since

then, things have been really, really good for us.  And

we hope that a lot of other artists are able to do

that.  If they can't sell their work on their own, they

should sell their work to a place where they can be

called or introduced when people are interested in

meeting 'em.

   

   Cole:  Great.

   

   Steiger:  I'm trying to think of something

intelligent [to ask].  It seems like we always turn the

camera off, and pack everything up, and then we're

goin' down the road and I think, "Oh! we forgot to ask

about this or that."

   

   Cole:  Well, thank you, Colina, for putting up with

us for an hour or so.

   

   Yazzie:  You're welcome.

   

   Cole:  It was great.

   

   Steiger:  Yeah, it was really good.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]