JAY SPRINGER INTERVIEW
   
   



[BEGIN SIDE 1]


   
   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.
It's December 17, 1998.  We're here visiting with Jay
Springer as part of the United Indian Traders
Association Oral History Project.  Also present in the
room are Karen Underhill from NAU and Lew Steiger.


   
   Cole:  Jay, we always like to begin at the very

beginning.  When and where were you born?

   

   Springer:  I was born in 1935 at Ganado Presbyterian

Hospital out there on the reservation.  So it's been a

while!  (laughter)  I've enjoyed it.  In fact, looking

back on it, it's the best part of my life, probably.

   I spent the early part of my life living on the

reservation, until school age, and then we moved to

Gallup, and I went to the Gallup schools, and on to

school from there.

   

   Cole:  What were your parents doing that you were at

Ganado when you were born?

   

   Springer:  They were operating a trading post, the

Sunrise Trading Post.  We eventually ended up with--

well, progressively we ended up with a total of five,

after a period of time--but initially they were

operating the Sunrise Trading Post, just west of

Ganado.

   

   Cole:  What were your parents' names?

   

   Springer:  Harold Springer and Ruth Springer.

   Cole:  Were they the owners of Sunrise?

   

   Springer:  They were partners with Clarence Wheeler

that was out there at this period of time.

   

   Cole:  How did your parents end up in the Southwest?

   

   Springer:  Well, Dad, when he graduated from school--

he graduated during the Depression--and that was one of

the few jobs that he could find.  So he didn't plan it

that way, it was one of those deals where it just

worked that way.  He worked summers down here, and then

as the Depression got worse, he was offered a job down

here as a bookkeeper, as an accountant, and took that,

because there wasn't much else available at that point

in time.  So that's how he came to this area.

   

   Cole:  Came to Gallup?

   

   Springer:  Came to Gallup.  He was originally from

the Durango area.

   

   Cole:  And your mother was also from…

   

   Springer:  She was from Johnstown, a little town

north of Denver, about sixty miles north of Denver.

   

   Cole:  And how did they meet, do you know?

   

   Springer:  (laughs)  I don't know about that one.

They met in school, but beyond that, I don't know.

They both attended University of Colorado.

   

   Cole:  And you mentioned that your parents

eventually owned five trading posts, or were involved

with five trading posts.  Was that all at the same

time, or different?

   

   Springer:  No, at one point in time, it was all at

the same time, yeah.

   Cole:  And was that from Gallup that he…

   

   Springer:  Eventually.  We set up an accounting

office in Gallup and operated out of Gallup, primarily

because we did our banking in Gallup, and originally

our food wholesalers were here, and so this was a good

area to operate out of, and we'd commute to the

individual trading posts then.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember the names of all of them?

   

   Springer:  Yeah, there was, as I mentioned before,

the Sunrise Trading Post beyond Ganado, the Lower

Greasewood Trading Post, the White Cone Trading Post,

and we had the Dilkon [phonetic spelling] Trading Post,

and then another Sunrise Trading Post located at Leupp.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any early memories of Ganado, the

Sunrise Trading Post?

   

   Springer:  That's mainly where I grew up, until I

was of school age.  We stayed there and lived there.

Yeah, it was a good time in my life.  We enjoyed it.

Of course I guess maybe we didn't know any better, but

things were simple.  Of course we didn't have any

electricity, so we worked with kerosene lamps and

eventually got around to the point where we had the old

wind-charger that generated electricity.  Didn't get to

town very often, the roads weren't that good, and so we

didn't get to town too often.  It was a good time, a

good time in my life.

   

   Cole:  With this time of the year, do you remember

what the Christmas holiday was like for a real small

boy at Ganado?

   

   Springer:  The memory that--of course, here again,

you've got to take it with the time--when I was small,

in preschool, I can remember thinking that Santa Claus

must have come, because I could see these sleigh

tracks.  Well, the reason I saw the sleigh tracks was

because the Navajos at that point in time in the

wintertime, the snow got deep enough, they put the

runners on their wagons.  So in fact I could go out

there and I could see these sleigh tracks, and I knew

(laughter) that he'd been there.  But as I say, this

was preschool.

   

   Cole:  Did you have any brothers and sisters?

   

   Springer:  I have a sister.  She was with us, and

lived out there until school age, too.  About our only--

we would visit with other traders' families.  Early-on,

that was about our only socializing, was we would visit

with other traders' families and their children.  So

that was how we got together socially.

   

   Cole:  Once you moved into Gallup, what are memories

from your childhood in Gallup?

   

   Springer:  Well, even after we moved to Gallup, we

continued to go out there during summers, and spent our

summers out there at the post.  And that continued

until I was in high school, I think, so we continued

even after that time, we continued to go back there.

We had horses and could ride, and we enjoyed it.

   

   Cole:  At some point in time, did you get put to

work in those early years?

   

   Springer:  Oh, yeah! we helped.  The chore that I

liked the least was sorting the potatoes--particularly

after they started to go.  That was kind of a smelly

job, after they got goin', but that was one of the jobs

that I got assigned to, was sorting the potatoes and

takin' the bad ones out, and that sort of stuff.  I

wasn't real crazy about that chore, but yeah, we had

chores.

   

   Cole:  What about Navajo friends?

   

   Springer:  Both my sister and I had Navajo friends,

kids about our age.  We had friends that we used to--

the expression is, "hang out with."  But there were

quite a few of those.  And they would ride our horses

and we'd ride theirs.  We got along fine, we got along

good.

   

   Cole:  Any particular childhood adventures that you

remember in those summers?

   

   Springer:  I don't know where anything comes to mind

immediately.  I guess the thing that stands out, of

course we grew up learning to ride bareback, like most

of the Navajo children did.  We grew up riding

bareback.  And of course it's fun to go fast, but of

course the horse would occasionally spook, and he would

go one direction and of course we ended up goin' the

other direction.  And we had quite a few of those.  Of

course we were young and it didn't make any difference

at that point in time.  I couldn't do it today, but at

that point in time it was a lot of fun, and we enjoyed

it.

     Nothing else specifically comes to mind--right at

the moment, at least, it doesn't.  In the spring when

they were buyin' the wool, my sister and I would enjoy

playin' on--they used to stack 'em and they'd get 'em

up pretty high, and that was a lot of fun, playin' on

those wool bags.  That was somethin' that was extra

fun.  But it was interesting, I enjoyed it.

   

   Cole:  How did your parents like the trading life?

   

   Springer:  They did.  They did that.  In fact, that

was the only job that Dad ever had, was the trading

post, and he spoke excellent Navajo and he continued to

commute, even after we had started school in Gallup.

He continued to commute back and forth--not on a daily--

but a weekly basis he'd go out and stay and come to

town on the weekends after we'd started to school.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned that he had gone to college.

Did he graduate?

   

   Springer:  Yes, he was a graduate of a university.

   

   Cole:  And what was his area of interest?

   

   Springer:  He got a degree in business

administration, so he was with an accounting major,

similar to what I had, or what I did.  That was where

he first got started, was the fact that he could keep

some records, was the reason that he first got started

with the original owners of those posts--he could keep

the records for 'em.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned Clarence Wheeler was one of his

partners.

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember him at all yourself?

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  What was he like?

   

   Springer:  Oh, he was quite an individual.  He went

more into the history of some of these things.  He was

always interested in the clan relationships among the

Navajos, as to who belonged to whom, and why, and this

sort of thing.  He was interested in that portion of

it.  And he and his family early-on lived at the post,

too.  But after a few years, he moved to Phoenix, and

he spent most of his time in Phoenix.

   

   Cole:  And were there other partners in your dad's

business?  Or was it just Clarence?

   

   Springer:  Yeah, there were some other partners.

Clarence was involved with the Sunrise, Greasewood, and

White Cone posts.  And then Francis Powell was

involved.  He was involved with the Dilcon and the

other Sunrise post at Leupp.

   

   Cole:  And I'm sort of interested, with your dad

coming from a business background, how did he view the

barter, trade, and stuff?

   

   Springer:  Well, of course that was new to him, too.

Initially, way back, it was all barter, there was just

no money exchanged hands.  It was all barter.  Of

course financing that kind of an operation, or that

method, got kind of extensive.  Hopefully, you were

only clear of debt twice a year--once in the spring

when you sold your wool, and once in the fall when you

sold your sheep and your cattle--and the rest of the

time you were operating on credit.

   

   Cole:  Did that credit extend both ways?  Did he

operate…

   

   Springer:  Yes.  In other words, the customer was

trading on credit, and then we, in addition, were

trading on credit.  We only paid our food wholesalers

twice a year, too.  So everybody was working on that

kind of a method.

   

   Cole:  And who were some of the wholesalers that

your dad dealt with?

   

   Springer:  The Gallup Mercantile Company, and the

Gross Kelly Company.  And they supplied most of

everything that we had to have:  the dry goods, the

groceries, hardware.  They supplied it all.  Initially

they were our big suppliers.

   

   Cole:  What was a typical day like for your parents

in the trading post, while you were out jumping off the

wool sacks?  (laughter)

   

   Springer:  Oh, it started fairly early.  I don't

know whether I have a clear recollection of a typical

day.  I don't know, it was during the seasons, during

the wool seasons and the [lamb] seasons, when we were

buying, they  were long.  You started early and you

stayed as long as the customer wanted to stay.  And if

it was six o'clock or seven o'clock or whenever he

wanted to finish up, you just stayed there until he was

finished, and that's the way it was.  The other times,

of course, weren't like that.  They were somewhat

normal.  In those days, it was eight to six, instead of

nine to five.  It just depended what the activity was,

and what season we were in, as to what kind of hours

they were puttin' in.

   

   Cole:  When you went back out to the post in the

summer, did you go to the same one every year?

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  That was out to Sunrise?

   

   Springer:  Yes.  That's where we spent the bulk of

our time.

   

   Cole:  What were the Navajo customers like?

   

   Springer:  Oh, they were friendly.  I don't recall

any--offhand--I assume there probably were some--I

don't recall any instances where there was a lot of

problems.  I don't recall any occasions.  In the early

days--this is prior to the pickup--but in the early

days they would come.  If they came from a long

distance, they would camp at the store and stay

overnight.  In other words, they'd come in and do their

trading and then if it was a long ways home, they just

stayed overnight, and then they went back the next

morning.  And of course everything was horse and wagon

in those days, early on.  I have good recollections of

the early days.  I was glad I was out there when I was.

I'm not crazy about it today, but I'm glad I was out

there when I was.

   

   Cole:  What's changed to make it not as attractive

today?

   

   Springer:  Well, it's like a lot of other things,

nobody has any time today.  The Navajos are like

anybody else.  They only have so much time to spend

doing this now, and then they're gone.  They don't have

a lot of time to sit around and gab.  Previous to this,

they always had time.  They'd sit down and maybe talk

for half an hour.  And of course the trader did too--he

had a lot of time.  So it kind of worked both ways.

But nobody has time to sit down and gab anymore:

Everybody's gotta go.  "I hafta go!"  That's the

biggest thing, I think.  Of course I'm sure you've

heard this from some of your other interviews, I think

the biggest thing to change the reservation and the

Navajo was the pickup.  I think that's the biggest

thing.  That, and of course the roads got better.  They

got to where they had better roads and that sort of

thing.  So things started changin' right after that.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned that your dad was hired

initially because he did know how to keep records.

   

   Springer:  Uh-huh.

   

   Underhill:  What kind of business records did your

dad's post, or other trading posts, keep in that time?

   

   Springer:  Oh, we had small--well, we called 'em

charge pads--you just listed the individual's purchases

for the day, and this sort of stuff.  And you just kept

a continuous record of this, and the item was written

down and priced out, and these then were your

receivables.  And they were kept in--our operation,

they were kept in what we called a McKaskey Register

[phonetic spelling], and each individual had his own

slot, and these were torn out and put in this register,

and they were continuously updated all the time.  So if

the need be, you could go through and get your

receivables daily, if you wanted to do that, that much.

Normally, we didn't.  We took our inventories twice a

year--once in the spring and once in the fall, to

determine what our condition was.

   

   Cole:  I was kind of curious when you went to the

trading post in the summer, did your family ever come

into town all summer?

   

   Springer:  Oh, yeah, we'd come into town

occasionally, but it was only maybe to pick up some

grocery items that perhaps the store wasn't carryin',

or somethin' like that.  We would come in and then turn

around and go back.  Early, of course…  When I say,

"early," when I was preschool when I was out there, it

was too hard to come to town.  The roads were bad,

particularly the time of year it was, particularly in

the wintertime, it was quite an experience to get to

town.  It took a long time, and if the roads were bad,

it was a real experience to get to town.  So we didn't

come to town very often.

   

   Cole:  Did your dad deal in many arts and crafts,

rugs, things like that?

   

   Springer:  Yes.  Yes, that was part of the barter--

particularly the rugs.  They were big early-on.  That

was part of the barter, that was one of the things that

the Navajo had to sell that we could resell.  People

like John Kennedy, for example, were big rug buyers,

that we sold to.  And they were big-time, early-on.

   

   Underhill:  Would your dad work with weavers on

designs?

   

   Springer:  No, he never did that, he left it up to

the individual, and let her creativity or her

imagination--whatever she wanted to come up with.  He

never got into that portion of it.

   

   Cole:  Any particular types of rugs that Sunrise was

known for?

   

   Springer:  Well, on part of the--I'm sure you

probably have heard of those Ganado reds.  Well, that

is the same area that the Sunrise Post was in.  They

were part of that.  They had the dark reds with the

greys and blacks and whites and this sort of stuff.

What I call these "wild" colors didn't come on until

quite a bit later.  They stayed with the traditional

colors.

   

   

   Underhill:  I keep jumping in here!  When you talked

about the condition of the post, and taking inventory

every six months, do you recall what maybe the average

amount, in terms of receivables, was at that time?

   

   Springer:  Oh, golly, we would run $20,000 or

$30,000 worth of receivables.  As I say, it was

ongoing.  We cleaned up pretty good in the spring and

in the fall, but other than that, everything was just

on paper.

   

   Cole:  What kind of an income did it produce for

your dad, do you recall?

   

   Springer:  It was a good income.  Those early years,

I don't recall, I suspect $10,000 or $15,000, I

imagine, was a good income in those days.  I really

don't recall what it might have been in that time.  Of

course it was more after we got the other stores, but

it wasn't…  It was lucrative, it was better than the

same job would have paid off the reservation--it was

better than that--and primarily because of the

hardships you had to go through to earn it.  Because

initially, nobody else wanted to come out there.  So,

yeah, it was better than the same job off the

reservation.

   

   Cole:  So it sounds like you moved into Gallup in

the early forties, I'm guessing?

   

   Springer:  Well, let's see, yes, 1940…  The

Second World War was goin' on, it would have been along

about 1942, 1943.

   

   Cole:  And at what point did your father acquire

interest in these other trading posts?  Was it at that

point, or did he gradually do that?

   

   Springer:  It was a gradual process over the years.

It was a gradual thing, it didn't take place all at

once.  It was just a gradual…  It was one of those

things you heard about posts that might be available,

and if you could deal on 'em, you did; and if you

couldn't, you didn't.  It was one of those things.

   

   Cole:  And what was growing up in Gallup like then,

once you moved in here?

   

   Springer:  Oh, Gallup was, and still is, a trading

town for the surrounding areas.  We're experiencing

some growth today, but it's not that the city of Gallup

can support it, it's the surrounding reservations that

make it viable.  It's a trading center, and probably

always will be.  At one time the railroad was big here.

We had some uranium mines that were active for quite a

while, and right now we have a large open-pit coal mine

that's operating.  But mostly it's a trading center for

the surrounding reservation.

   

   Cole:  And you mentioned at some point you quit

going out to the reservation in summers.  When was

that?

   

   Springer:  Well, of course when I was in school, at

that point in time I was working in town and had summer

jobs in town, and I didn't go back out on the

reservation during the summertime.  But when I got out

of school, then I did a stint in the Army Reserve for a

while.  And then at that point in time I went back out.

This was, oh, Lord, I don't know, this would have been

… about the early sixties.

   

   Cole:  And when you said you went back out, you went

up to work one of the trading posts?

   

   Springer:  No, I guess that's a misnomer.  We got

down to the routine where I would make a round of all

the posts, pick up all the records and this sort of

thing--the source records that I needed--and then I

would bring 'em back to Gallup to work them up, as far

as all your financial records are concerned.

   

   Cole:  And were you working with your father still?

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Was this an unusual arrangement for a trading

business?

   

   Springer:  Probably.  I suspect that most of it was

done, perhaps, on site.  Most of the people hired CPAs

off reservation in one of the border towns, to do the

records.  We never did, but I suspect that's the way

most of the traders did it.

   

   Cole:  When did your father become involved with the

United Indian Traders Association?

   

   Springer:  He was one of the originators way back.

I would think--I'm not sure of the actual date that the

Traders Association started, but the early forties, I

think, or along in there sometime.  It was way, way

back.  He was one of the so-called charter members.  He

goes way back.

   

   Cole:  And did he have a position with the Traders,

or was he just a member?

   

   Springer:  At that point in time, he was just a

member.  Later on, he worked up as a director and was

the president for more than one term.  He held that

position.  I'm not sure about the time involved.

   

   Cole:  Do you recall what the initial reason for

[forming] the organization was?

   

   Springer:  Well, originally, it was to combat common

problems that all the traders were having.  I think

probably the biggest thing that the Association did was

pool together and hire prominent attorneys and this

sort of thing to deal with leases on the reservation,

when we dealt with Window Rock as concerned how these

leases were going to be handled, and this sort of

thing.  I think that's probably one of the biggest

things that the Association did.  Later on, they were

in the silver business for a while, and they would buy

silver in bulk and then the traders would buy from the

Association.  And I'm not sure about the term of that.

I don't know how long that lasted--I'm not sure.  That

was early, and I'm not sure about that.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember, did the Association accrue

quite a bit off that end of their business?

   

   Springer:  Not really.  They sold it, and they

invested the proceeds of that sale in AT&T stock.  They

didn't go out to make money, it's just that AT&T

continued to grow and split, and grow and split, and

this sort of thing.  And then, I forget what year it

was, but AT&T split off and spun off all the so-called

"baby Bells," and those stocks grew and this sort of

thing.  So eventually it accrued to quite a sum of

money.  As a money-maker, it was a small investment at

the time.  It just, over the course of twenty or thirty

years, amounted to quite a bit--eventually--due to

circumstances.

   

   Cole:  Were you a member of the Association

yourself?

   

   Springer:  Uh-huh.

   

   Cole:  When did you join, do you remember?

   

   Springer:  Oh, I had been a member for, I don't

know, probably twenty-five years, I guess.

   

   Cole:  Have you had positions within the

organization, other than a member?

   

   Springer:  I've just had the treasurer's position.

In the Traders Association, the individuals were not

members--the trading posts was where the membership

was.  So, in fact, if you paid your dues to the

Association, then you were a member--whoever the owner

of that particular trading post was--you were a member

of the Association then.  So it's been quite a long

time.

   

   Cole:  And describe maybe the duties as treasurer.

   

   Springer:  Well, the biggest thing, I think, was you

collected the dues and you sent out the little dun

letters that people were a little bit slow, you did

that.  Then at the annual meeting that was normally

held in the fall of the year, you gave 'em a financial

statement to show what the condition of the Association

was.  That was the biggest deal.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any idea of how large the

organization was in peak years?

   

   Springer:  At one time I think we were well over a

hundred members.  I can't remember exactly.  It seemed

like it was 115-120, something like that.  That

included some associate members that we had, but at the

peak, that was about it, I think.

   

   Cole:  What would somebody do to become an associate

member?

   

   Springer:  They were people like Pendleton Mills,

for example--they were an associate member.  Of course

they sold to the traders a tremendous amount of the

Pendleton products--the big blankets and shawls and

this sort of thing--and they were an associate member.

Let's see, it seems like there was somebody else.  I

can't remember right off hand.  But that's an example

of an associate member.  They weren't directly involved

in the business--only indirectly were they involved

with us.

   

   Cole:  Would some of the Gallup businessmen that

were kind of wholesalers be considered eligible for

full membership?  Or were they…

   

   Springer:  No, they wouldn't--not unless you were

actually involved in the trade.  You had to be dealing--

either have an operation, have a trading post, on the

reservation, or dealing directly with the Navajo.

   

   Cole:  Do you actually remember who the individual

was that decided to invest in AT&T stock?

   

   Springer:  I'm sure it was (chuckles) a so-called

committee decision, but as to who was involved in it,

I'm sure my dad was.  But beyond that, I don't know.

I'm sure it was a committee decision of some kind.  But

as I say, that goes back a little bit before my time--

or I wasn't very old at the time, so I'm not sure about

that one.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember then some of the different

issues that they dealt with over time?

   

   Springer:  Yes.  They took on the State of Arizona

from the aspect as to whether Arizona state sales taxes

were legitimate on the reservations, and eventually won

that in that fact that they weren't.  Of course the

state claimed that they were, or should be collected.

That was one of the bigger cases that they won for the

Association--well, not for the Association, all

members, anybody on the reservation benefitted from

that decision.  As I say, the leases, and I can't

remember right off hand.

   

   Cole:  Like on the Arizona sales tax issue, did the

Association have the funds within their coffers to hire

attorneys, or did they have to get extra money from the

membership?

   

   Springer:  I believe at that point in time I think

they made assessments.  They went to the members and

said that "the attorneys are going to cost this much,

and we need a little help."  And in fact, most

everybody did.  Most everybody was assessed and they

paid their assessments, and that's the way the

attorneys were paid.  So the membership dues, with what

few expenses we had, about paid for the expenses.  But

anything out of the ordinary, had to go to some kind of

an assessment to raise enough funds for that.

   

   Cole:  Was that your job, to collect the assessment,

too, then?

   

   Springer:  Well, it was my dad's job.  I didn't get

in on too much of that.  A lot of this stuff took

previous to me.  So that was his job, but it wasn't

mine.  I missed out on that one.

   

   Cole:  Was that difficult for him to collect that

money?

   

   Springer:  Oh (sigh), it kind of depended on whether

they believed in what you were trying to do.  The

Indian trader was highly independent, very independent,

and if he believed in what you were trying to do, it

wasn't a problem.  If he wasn't real crazy about it,

then it kind of was a problem.  But most of 'em were

okay, most of 'em were all right.

   

   Underhill:  What percentage of the Indian traders

who would have been eligible for membership joined the

Association?  You mentioned at its peak about a

hundred--100 out of maybe 200 eligible fellows?

   

   Springer:  At that peak, I don't believe that there

were 200 out there.  I suspect that we had, at the

peak, maybe two-thirds, or maybe three-fourths.  I

think at one time we've probably had most of 'em, but

we never did get everybody.

   

   Cole:  Any idea what portion of the traders were in

the border towns?

   

   Springer:  We didn't have too many traders that were

in the border towns that were members--not initially,

anyway.  Most of the membership had posts on the

reservation, and in the heyday of the Association, we

had people on the Zuni Reservation, on the Hopi

Reservation--of course the bulk was on the Navajo

Reservation.  But not too many from the border towns.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned the issue of leases.  Why were

they so difficult to get?

   

   Springer:  Well, it was initially the Navajo

Tribe…  We were goin' at it, everybody was going

after their own terms--for example, five years, ten

years, fifteen years, whatever.  What the Association

tried to do was get a standardized lease of some kind,

where the terms were the same for everybody, and we

were partially, or fairly successful doing that.  It

broke down a lot of years later, but initially we were

pretty successful.  We initially--these leases that I'm

talkin' about--we had twenty-five years.  Well, it's

pretty difficult to get a twenty-five-year lease today,

but at that point in time, we were successful in

getting those leases.  Everybody's lease was the same,

the terms were the same, the rental agreements were the

same, and all this for everybody.  So it benefitted

everybody.

   

   Cole:  What changed, that made it more difficult?

After those twenty-five-year leases ended, what had

changed within the system to make it difficult

__________?

   

   Springer:  Well, the tribe didn't want to enter into

that again.  They felt at that point in time that the

leases were too long.  They didn't want to get into

another twenty-five-year agreement.  And they

preferred, as opposed to dealing in a group, they

wanted to deal with the individuals.  I assume that it

was a benefit to them, I don't know.  After that, it

was just so-called "every man for himself," and you

just did the best you could.  You just got the best

deal that you could, so [went out that way?].

   

   Underhill:  Did the Association ever encounter any

corrupt tribal officials in their dealings with trying

to arrange a standardized lease?

   

   Springer:  Oh (sigh), I don't recall any instance of

that.  I don't know, maybe some of the people ran into

it.  I don't recall anything like that, though, no.

And I don't recall my dad mentioning anything like

that.  As I say, there may have been some instances,

but I don't recall anything.

   

   Cole:  How long did you and your dad keep your

interests in the trading posts?

   

   Springer:  I got out, I finished 'em up in 1992, was

the last year that I was active and participated.

   

   Cole:  What were your experiences in trying to

renegotiate leases?

   

   Springer:  Well, it got to the point that we could

only get short-term leases.  And by short-term, I'm

talkin' five years.  Well, from our viewpoint, you

couldn't do a lot in five years--particularly with

capital improvements and this sort of thing.  It was

too short to get your money back.  It was too short of

a period.  So consequently it made long-range planning

difficult.  If you only had a five-year lease, you

didn't know at the end of that five years if you were

gonna get another lease or not, so it made long-term

planning a little difficult.  It was, as I said,

probably a difficult period.

   

   Cole:  Would the Association, did they continue to

try to deal with that lease [situation]?

   

   Springer:  Not at that point in time.  As I say,

after that initial twenty-five-year period was over,

they weren't active in the lease portion of the

negotiations.  They weren't active in that.

   

   Cole:  Did that bother the membership?

   

   Springer:  Well, it depended.  If the individual

that dealt with them got a good lease, he wasn't gonna

complain.  He wasn't gonna argue.  The individual that

got a bad, or didn't think that he had a good lease,

may say somethin', and on occasions did, because the

tribe was, according to him, treating him unfairly, or

something like that.  But it got down to--the

Association tried to stay with problems that were

affecting the bulk of the membership, and tried to stay

out of individual problems. I mean, if an individual

had a problem with the tribe, unless it was something

way out of the ordinary, they tried to stay away from

that.  They didn't get involved in those deals.

   

   Cole:  And what do you remember about the FTC

hearings?

   

   Springer:  I wish you hadn't brought that up.

(laughter)  Here again, it was difficult to explain to

somebody out of Washington as to exactly how we

operated.  They wanted us to operate just like somebody

in one of the border towns would operate.  Of course we

contended that we had a different kind of trade.  They

wanted us on a cash basis.  And of course the Navajo

wanted credit and enjoyed his credit, and wanted things

to stay the same.  But they said, "Well, if he brings

you something to sell, you pay him cash for it, as

opposed to taking that off his bill, whatever it was he

owed you."  In other words, as I say, they wanted 'em

to deal like the white man did.  That's what they

wanted.  And it was difficult to explain to them that

in fact we were a little unique, and they didn't want

us unique.  They wanted us to deal like…  And that

was the start of the cash economy that you've got out

there today.  You don't have a lot of credit, you have

pretty much of a cash society out there now.

   

   Cole:  What do you think brought about the whole

rise of that issue?

   

   Springer:  Well, I don't know.  There was some…

What am I tryin' to say here?  Some problems, for lack

of a better word, I guess.  There were some problems,

and that in fact initiated it.  As I say, the

Association could not speak for everybody.  The

individual members operated their businesses in their

own fashions, whatever that was, so that in fact, there

was probably some areas where individuals members and

people that weren't members, there was problems with

the pawn and this sort of thing.  And that's about the

time that they stopped takin' pawn on the reservation,

and of course all the pawn moved to the border towns,

which is my opinion they didn't help the Navajo people

any, but that was their decision, so we were forced to

go with it.

   

   Cole:  Did you attend any of the hearings yourself?

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Describe what those were like.

   

   Springer:  They had a panel of about, I can't

remember, seems like there was about four or five

people.  You were asked to bring in records, and they

quizzed you on what your practices were, and this sort

of thing.  I think the thing that I remember the best

was that one individual, one of our people, said, "What

I'm telling you is the truth, and if you don't believe

me, you could come out to the post and I'll show you."

The panelist's response was, "Well, I'm paid too much

to go out there on the middle of the reservation."  So

that was the end of that discussion.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember the makeup of the panel?

Were they all from Washington, or was it a mixture?

   

   Springer:  I don't remember, no.  I don't know if

they were all out of Washington or not.  I can't

remember that one.  I don't know if they all--some of

them were, but I don't remember if they all were.

   

   Cole:  How involved was the Association in this

issue?

   

   Springer:  They were involved, but only on the

perimeter.  They didn't get directly involved with…

In other words, the Association didn't hire an attorney

to take on the FTC.  They didn't do that.  What it

evolved down to was that each operator hired their own

attorneys and this sort of thing to appear before the

FTC.

   

   Cole:  Did every trader ________.

   

   Springer:  No, there's was examples made of certain

traders.  It wasn't reservation-wide.  They picked

certain organizations.  We had one of our posts that

was involved.  But it wasn't reservation-wide.

   

   Cole:  Any idea why you were one of the lucky ones?

   

   Springer:  I suspect our size had a little something

to do with it.

   

   Cole:  Meaning bigger than most?

   

   Springer:  Well, as I say, at one time we had five

posts under management.  Babbitt Brothers out of

Flagstaff were also involved.  I suspect that's what it

was, but I don't have any proof that that's what the

reason was.

   

   Cole:  I know there were a couple of traders that

seemed like they possibly had legal action taken

against them.  I think Blair and Wheeler and McGee.

Did the Association become involved in those cases?

   

   Springer:  No, they didn't.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember anything about why those

people were…

   

   Springer:  I don't know.  I can't remember.  They

weren't all the same problems--there were individual

problems that they were going after, and I can't

remember exactly what they were involved with.  I don't

remember that.

   

   Cole:  When individual traders like that had that

kind of difficulty, did they actually ever approach the

Association for help?  Not necessarily in just the FTC,

but in other situations?

   

   Springer:  Well, as I said, there were some

individuals that were having particular problems--

whether it was with the FTC or somebody else.  But the

Association, as long as it was an individual thing,

they didn't get involved in that sort of thing.  It had

to be something pretty widespread before the

Association got involved--something that affected a lot

of people, or a lot of the traders.

   

   Cole:  Was there any method that a person could

bring an issue to the Association?

   

   Springer:  At that point in time, we had directors'

meetings on a quarterly basis, and any member was

welcome to bring any particular problem that he might

have, before the directors, and the directors would

study it and see if there was anything they could do

with it.  That was the main route for the individuals

to come to the Association.  And of course at the

annual meetings they could bring up anything they

wanted to.

   

   Cole:  Was the position of treasurer a member of the

board of directors?

   

   Springer:  Yes, he was a member of the board of

directors, yes.

   

   Cole:  And those quarterly meetings, did they meet

in the same place, or did they move around?

   

   Springer:  No, we moved around.  We tried to have

one in Flagstaff, one in Gallup, and one in Farmington,

and then we had the annual meeting.  So that was how

that was handled.

   

   Cole:  And just so I get the chronology straight,

how long did your dad serve as treasurer?  What year

did he…

   

   Springer:  Oh, golly!  (laughter)  I don't know.  He

held the position a long time.  I would say he held it

probably twenty years before I assumed the slot.  Dad

passed away in 1979, so it would have been probably the

late fifties, early sixties.

   

   Cole:  Did they have to vote you in, or did you just

sort of…

   

   Springer:  Well, they didn't vote me in, I took

Dad's duties because he wasn't able to.  Late in life,

he wasn't able to.  So I assumed his duties, and the

board agreed with it.  I guess after a while they

thought I was doin' a good enough job that I was

finally elected to the slot.

   

   Cole:  Was that a paid position?

   

   Springer:  No.  It was a donated position.

   

   Cole:  Did you all invest in AT&T?  (laughter)

   

   Springer:  I wish!  No.  Looking back on it,

hindsight, I wish I had!  I wish I had.

   

   Underhill:  What were the annual meetings like?

   

   Springer:  Well, they were quite a social occasion.

We had--originally you had a banquet and you had a

dance afterwards, and there was live music.  And it was

the one time of the year that people from parts of the

reservation that you normally didn't get to see came

into it.  It was quite a social occasion.  And of

course…  This I never understood.  They had their

business meetings on Sunday morning, and of course this

was after the banquet, and after the dance, and all

this sort of stuff, and of course the refreshments were

rather (sniffs)--there was a lot of 'em.  (laughter)

and I never did understand why, on Sunday morning, at

eight o'clock, then everybody was supposed to be bushy-

tailed and be able to handle all this sort of stuff.

Needless to say, the business portion of it didn't last

too long.

   

   Cole:  So there was no meeting on Saturday at all,

except for the social?

   

   Springer:  No, there wasn't anything on Saturday.

That was originally how it was done.  It evolved to

less and less and less, until it got down to a point

where it evolved to a business meeting on Saturday, and

then that was it, period.

   

   [END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

   Cole:  This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona

University.  We're visiting with Jay Springer today.

It's December 17, 1998.  Also present in the room are

Karen Underhill from Northern Arizona University, and

Lew Steiger, and this is Tape 2 of a United Indian

Traders Association oral history interview.

   We were talking about the UITA annual meetings, and

I'm kind of curious, what kind of business was

conducted at those meetings?

   

   Springer:  Well, the chief thing was the election of

the officers and the directors.  And then it was open

to the floor, anybody that had particular problems, or

anybody that wanted to bring up something before the

Association, they did.  We had guest speakers, normally

somebody that [had] some area of expertise that we

needed to know about--particularly we had a lot of the

tribal representatives, a lot of the tribal officials

as speakers, and this sort of thing, in certain areas

that they spoke to us, and this sort of thing.  But it

was mostly thrown open to the membership, as to

whatever problems they might have, and they could bring

'em up.  I think the most important thing, as I say,

was the election of the officers and the directors.

   

   Cole:  Were they all elected annually, or was it…

   

   Springer:  Yes.  They had staggered terms, so that I

think only half of the board came up at one time, and

the other half was a carry-over board.  So no, they

weren't elected each year, no, not all of 'em.

   

   Cole:  Would the vote actually occur at the meeting,

or did they send ballots out to the membership?

   

   Springer:  It occurred at the meeting.  You were

given a ballot with the individuals' names on it--

whoever was going to run.  Then you had to be a member

in order to vote, and the members then voted by secret

ballot.

   

   Cole:  Where were the annual meetings held?

   

   Springer:  Oh, they were usually held at one of the

bigger motels in the border towns.  A lot of 'em were

held at the Shalimar Inn here in Gallup when it was

new.  And they were held sometimes at a country club--

the Farmington Country Club was used, the Gallup

Country Club was used.  Usually at one of the larger

motels where they had a large meeting room and this

sort of stuff, and where people could stay if they

would come a long distance, where they could just stay

overnight.

   

   Cole:  What kind of bands did they have?

   

   Springer:  Oh, they had some good bands.  They were

usually, my recollection with these here in Gallup, the

bands were usually out of Albuquerque, and they were,

oh, I don't know, a four- or five-piece band.  They

were usually pretty lively bands.

   

   Cole:  Any particular type of music, or did that

change?

   

   Springer:  I don't recall.  It seems like to me they

were pretty much--they played the whole gamut of music.

I don't recall anything special.  Of course we

appointed somebody to host in each border town, and

they arranged for the banquet and they arranged for the

music and all that sort of stuff, in each area.

   

   Cole:  Were you ever the host?

   

   Springer:  No, I missed out on that one.  (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  What was the role for women, or traders'

wives, in the Association?

   

   Springer:  I don't recall, until just the last few

years, that we ever had a woman director--I don't

believe we did.  And it's too bad, because there were a

lot of women at these posts that were runnin' the post

as good or better than the husband was.  And there's

occasions of--I can't recall immediately--but there

were occasions where the husband passed away, and the

wife stayed right there and continued to run the post

and that sort of thing.  But their roles were mostly

helpmates and wives.  That was basically what it was.

As I say, we were remiss in not pursuing getting a

woman on the board.  We were neglect in not doing that.

Looking back, here again, of course your hindsight is

always better.

   

   Cole:  Could a post send a representative to the

meeting, and could that person be a voting person?

   

   Springer:  Yes, if they had the--oh, what am I

trying to say?--the proxy from the member, yes, they

could do that.  You could have somebody other than the

post owner vote for the post.  Yeah, you could do that.

   

   Cole:  And would the traders have any particular

fare that they'd want for dinner, or did it vary?

   

   Springer:  Oh, it…  (laughs)  I think I'm being

set up here!  Sounds like you already have heard some

stories.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  No, I haven't, actually.  You're the first

person we've talked to who seems to remember much about

it.

   

   Springer:  No, I don't recall.  It seems like it was

mostly steaks and this sort of thing.  They had

normally had plenty of lamb out there where they were,

so we didn't get into that--we didn't get into the

lamb.  Most of it was steaks, if I remember correctly.

Of course we initially had some kind of a fancy dessert

of some kind--either baked Alaska or something fancy.

   

   Cole:  Would they ever offer any door prizes?

   

   Springer:  Yes, it seems like we had raffles for, I

think, a bottle of liquor.  The ladies always--we

raffled off, we had flowers for centerpieces on the

tables, and the ladies went home with the centerpieces--

we raffled all those off and everything.  To my

recollection, that was most of it.

   

   Underhill:  Who, among the traders, stands out in

your mind?

   

   Springer:  Hm.  (pause)  Oh (sigh), I don't know.

The Indian trader was so independent and so much of an

individual that it's hard for me to single out an

individual that really, to me, stands out.  There were

a lot of people that were very successful, but by the

same token, like any sector business, there were some

that weren't, too.  And there were always a few that

were stirrin' up things that probably would be left

better unstirred and this sort of thing.  But I can't

think of an individual right now that really stands out

in my mind.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned being an individual or

independent.  What other characteristics do traders

share in common?

   

   Springer:  Well, that, to me, is the major quality

that I noticed.  They didn't group together unless it

was a problem that they couldn't handle as an

individual, and then they were inclined to come

together for a cause or whatever.  But I think that's

the biggest thing, or the most important thing that

stands out in my mind, is their individualism.  That

stands out in my mind more than anything else.

   

   Cole:  We've seen, when you look at the trading

business, there's a lot of extended families in the

business.  (Springer:  Yes.)  Were brothers pretty

competitive with each other, or did they try to get

together and monopolize?

   

   Springer:  Well, they could be [competitive], and of

course the reason they had extended families in the

business was because you could always trust them.  You

didn't have to worry about whether they were gonna be

honest or not.  That's why so many of 'em got extended

families--particularly if they were gonna take on

another post or something like that.  They'd put family

members in there, because they could trust those, you

didn't have to go out and hire 'em and wonder whether

they were trustworthy or not.  So that was one of the

reasons why we had a lot of extended families.  But

yes, brothers would compete with brothers in this sort

of thing.  Yes, they would compete on a business basis.

Yeah, they'd compete, you bet.

   

   Cole:  Could you describe for us, if you don't mind,

how the Association disbanded, and how they decided to

fund these different projects?

   

   Springer:  We got to a point where our membership

was dwindling, and at that point in time, as I

mentioned before, the AT&T stock, through splits and

through spinoff of the baby Bells and a few other

things, had grown substantially, and we had a pretty

sizeable war chest.  Since we were a nonprofit

organization, then it was decided that in fact we

should do some things with this money that would

perhaps benefit people.  This history of the

Association, and the history of some of these traders

was at the top of the list.  Beyond that, some

donations to universities, hospitals, museums, and this

sort of thing, in various amounts, to dispose of this

war chest that had built up--not through smart

investing--it had just occurred this way, just grew.

   

   Cole:  I'm curious, maybe you could explain for us,

because other people have asked me, why the traders

just didn't split the money up among themselves.  I

assume it's something to do with the nonprofit status?

   

   Springer:  Yes.  Yes, that's true, we couldn't.  We

couldn't, without…  We were a nonprofit

organization, and we couldn't divide the money up among

the members, we couldn't do that.  It had to go to--

without a lot of IRS problems, we couldn't do that, so

that's why we took the route that we did.

   

   Cole:  And then one more UITA-related question.

What occurred at the quarterly meetings, the director

meetings?

   

   

   Springer:  Well, the directors discussed any

problems that they…  Members would sometimes come to

the directors with a particular problem, and at the

quarterly meetings, the directors would discuss what

problems were out there, and whether or not they

thought that the Association should get involved in

them or not.  And it was more of an informational

meeting more than anything else.  And as I said, the

individual members, of course they were apprised of

these quarterly meetings, and they could come, and if

they had a particular problem they could appear before

the board and tell them what their individual problem

was.  Of course, if they wanted assistance, they would

appear before the board.  Some of 'em were helped, and

others the board didn't feel was a cause that the

Association should take up.  So it just depended on

what the individual's problem was.

   

   Underhill:  Do you recall the nature of any of those

problems?

   

   Springer:  Oh, the biggest thing was probably after

we got to go back, after we got out of this twenty-five-

year lease period, I think the biggest thing that the

members weren't happy with was the terms of the new

leases that they weren't getting.  There didn't seem to

be any--I'm sure the tribe had their own reasoning--but

there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason or

consistency to terms of these leases that the

individuals got when they appeared as individuals

before the Economic Committee.  As I say, some were

getting five years, and some were getting ten years.

Of course the individual was concerned as to why he was

only getting this length of time, when some other

individual was getting fifteen or twenty years.  That

was the biggest thing that I recall.  They seemed to

be--and rightly so.  There didn't seem to be a lot of

consistency.  Of course part of the reason was the

tribe would say, "Well, if you want a twenty-year

lease, what improvements are you going to make over

this twenty years?"  Well, to be perfectly fair, some

of the individuals would say, "None."  Well, then

they're only gonna get a five-year lease.  The other

individuals say, "Well, I'm gonna build a new store."

Well, he got a twenty-year lease.  And that was only

right.  If you're willing to spend some money, you

should get a longer lease than the individual who said,

"No, I'm not gonna spend any money."  So that's kinda

the way it went.  But, even so, they weren't real crazy

about it.  Even so, they still weren't real crazy about

it.  That was the major problem that occurs to me.

That's the major problem that I recall.

   

   Cole:  What about the whole issue with the Thriftway

Stores, when they got all their leases?  Did that come

up at UITA?

   

   Springer:  It was discussed among the board, but

there was never any action taken.  We felt that maybe

things weren't all on the up-and-up, but the

Association didn't take it on, no.  The individual

members felt this.

   

   Cole:  Were the Thriftway people ever members of the

Association?

   

   Springer:  I think they had one or two stores at one

time, that were members, but not as a company, no.

   

   Underhill:  Were there any Navajo traders who were

members of the Association?

   

   Springer:  Yes, there were a few.  I can't recall

right now who they were, but yes, we had some Navajo

members.

   

   Cole:  Would there ever be cause to have a special

meeting of the membership, beside the annual meeting?

Would they ever have anything like that?

   

   Springer:  I don't recall that.  There may have

been, but not in my tenure, I don't recall that.  The

board could be called for a special meeting, if there

was something that was crucial, but I don't recall the

general membership being called.  There was an occasion

here within the last two or three years when we were

considering disbanding the organization, and the

distribution of some of these funds.  We, in fact,

called a special general meeting.  But beyond that, not

in the regular procedures, unt-uh.

   

   Cole:  In looking through the records of the UITA,

it appeared right when the organization was breaking

up, there were a couple of lawsuits that I've never

quite understood what…  They seemed to be suing over

the breakup.

   

   Springer:  Oh, there was some individuals that

weren't in agreement with the way that we wanted to

distribute these funds.  They weren't in agreement with

them, and so in fact did file.  It never went to court,

but in fact, yes, they did file suit.  They weren't in

agreement, the way that the board suggested that they

be distributed, they weren't in agreement, and did in

fact file suit.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember how that was resolved?

   

   Springer:  Yeah, they had input, and I can't even

remember that there was a lot of change.  But it was

resolved, and the individual dropped the complaint, and

that was the end of that.  I just flat can't remember.

I can't remember what it was that he particularly

opposed.  I don't remember for sure.

   

   Cole:  Do you have any favorite stories or memories

associated with the Association?

   

   Springer:  Oh, I don't know.  They were…  Early-

on, they were kind of a party crew--at least on the

annual meetings.  (chuckles)  They did a lot of good,

but early-on, when they were out on the reservation and

didn't come to town very much, when they did, they

liked to party.  At the annual meetings, it was a real

party.  I think that was my best memories of it.

   

   Cole:  What about outside the Association, favorite

memories about trading, or different traders?

   

   Springer:  Oh (sigh), I don't know.  We used to get

together on occasions way back.  We used to, when we

were buying these sheep, we used to, before the era of

the truck, we used to drive 'em to the railheads.  And

of course there were usually several traders that were

doing about the same thing at about the same time, and

that was sort of…  A small group would meet and get

together and this sort of thing.  There might be a few

parties, but beyond that…  (laughter)  I can't

recall anything specific.

   

   Cole:  Were those parties along the trail?

   

   Springer:  No, you usually didn't do any partying

until you'd finished up, after you got all the sheep on

the boxcars and this sort of stuff, and you'd settled

up with your buyer, whoever he was.  Then it was

usually time to party a little bit.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever have the opportunity to push the

sheep all the way in yourself?

   

   Springer:  No, I never did do that.  I did, in fact,

follow 'em.  By "follow 'em," you'd get 'em started in

the morning and then you'd check with 'em every night

when they bedded down for the night, and checked on

their progress, all the way through.  But as to go all

the way through with 'em, no, I never did do that.

   

   Cole:  You hired Navajo?

   

   Springer:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  Would those usually be somebody that was

affiliated with your post, then?

   

   Springer:  Yeah, they were--normally either worked

for us--and of course in those days we were shipping

anywhere from 7,000-8,000 head, and it was a pretty

good-sized deal, and you had to have, besides the

individuals maybe associated with the post or worked

around the post, you had to have his family, and had to

hire on other people [to help] handle it, because it

was a pretty good-sized project.

   

   Cole:  Were these people paid cash, or just credit

at the store?

   

   Springer:  No, they were paid cash when they got

through.

   

   Cole:  Can you remember what…

   

   Springer:  The going rate was?  (laughter)  No, I'm

sorry.

   

   Steiger:  Did they all ride horseback to drive these

sheep?

   

   Springer:  Yeah.

   

   Underhill:  Or they went on foot?

   

   Springer:  Well, some of 'em were on foot, but they

were on horseback and on foot.

   

   Underhill:  Do you speak Navajo?

   

   Springer:  A few words.  Here again, in hindsight I

have regretted that in fact I didn't learn more.  The

best way, of course, to learn is to be in the post

itself and deal with the people themselves.  That's the

best way to learn, and the fastest way to learn.  And

of course when I was young, it would have been fairly

easy to pick it up.  But no, I'm sorry to say I don't.

I know some phrases and some words, but beyond that, I

have to plead that I don't know that much.  As I say,

my dad spoke excellent Navajo, but I never did pick up

that much.

   

   Cole:  Did he have a nickname, your dad?

   

   Underhill:  A Navajo nickname.

   

   Springer:  Yeah, his nickname was K��neeshb�zhii.

It means "Spaghetti Man," and how he got that name, I'm

not sure.  I'm not sure of the origin.

   

   Underhill:  Do you know if you had a nickname when

you were a little boy?  Or you're "Son of Spaghetti

Man?"

   

   Springer:  Yes, I was Son of Spaghetti Man, that's

right.  That's what they called me.  I was Son of

Spaghetti Man, yeah.  That's right.

   

   Cole:  And I assume your dad's posts initially were

bullpen operations?

   

   Springer:  Yes, they were.

   

   Cole:  How did those change over time?

   

   Springer:  Well, of course one thing about the

bullpen, I can recall, here again, way back--

particularly when Navajos were stayin' over, camping

near the post, that sometimes in the evenings they'd

come in and they'd have a Yei'ii bicheii right in the

bullpen area, where they'd take--of course we're

selling corn--and they would take some corn and he'd

put 'em in a little paper sack, and that made the

rattles for 'em and this sort of stuff.  And they'd

have this Yei'ii bichei dance right in the bullpen

area.  I still recall that.  That was when I was quite

young, but I still recall that.

   But we had to go to self-service, and we started

putting certain items out in the bullpen area where

they could pick up themselves, and this sort of stuff.

And eventually that evolved to the full self-service

operation, like the convenience stores are today.

That's about what it evolved to.

   

   Cole:  How many employees would a post have after it

changed over?  Did you…

   

   Springer:  Well, of course that…  It increased

the…  Initially, I don't know that there was a lot

of change.  I'm sure there was, because you had to have

more employees behind the--had to have more employees

when everything was behind the counter.  And when you

went to self-service, of course you only had to have

one or two clerks.  But when you went to that, then the

manager or whoever still had to have an area or an

office where he could still deal with the people one-on-

one, because they had things to sell and things to buy

that weren't out in the main store area.

   

   Cole:  Did your stores ever offer, at any point,

employees' benefits or profit-sharing, anything like

that?

   

   Springer:  No, we never got to that.  We did have

health insurance, but beyond that, we never had any

other benefits.

   

   Underhill:  Did you have a general accounting

business, or other businesses, or was your accounting

focused specifically on the trading posts?

   

   Springer:  No, it was big enough that I just focused

on that.  I didn't go outside and have any other

accounting clients.  It was big enough that that was

all I did.

   

   Cole:  How do you view the future of Indian trading?

   

   Springer:  Oh, I think it's about gone.  In fact, I

don't know how many true trading posts are still left

on the reservation--not very many.  I think everything

is convenience store type operations, and I don't call

those trading posts.  I think it's about gone.

   

   Cole:  How about the future of Indian arts and

crafts?

   

   Springer:  Oh, I don't know.  I think it's kind of

tenuous.  There is so much fake stuff--both in the

jewelry and the rugs and everything else--there is so

much fake stuff out there now, that I don't know.  It

certainly isn't what it was several years ago.  It's

not near what it was.  The rugs are comin' out of

Mexico and the jewelry and turquoise and things are

comin' in, a lot of it, from some foreign countries,

and I just don't know.  If it's gonna be saved, it's

gonna take a lot tighter regulation than we've got

today.

   

   Cole:  Then maybe how about what you think's gonna

happen with the Navajo Reservation?

   

   Springer:  I don't know.  I would be in hopes that

they would be able to do something with that vast labor

pool that they've got out there.  I would be in hopes

they would be able to do something with it.  But at

least to date, it doesn't seem like that there's been a

lot of progress in that area.  It just doesn't seem

like there has been.  Of course they've got that big

farming development over there around Farmington,

around San Juan, and it is a big operation, but of

course most of it's mechanized.  There's not a lot of

employment over there.  So I don't know.  I don't see,

unless some large corporation of some kind would come

in and be willing to set up some large kind of a

manufacturing process or something like that, where

they would employ a lot of people, I just don't know

whether…  I think it's kind of cloudy, a little

murky right now.  I don't see a lot of positive things,

let me put it that way.  I don't see a lot of positive

things.

   

   Cole:  I thought of another Association question.

How were the big traders, like Babbitts, perceived

within the Association?

   

   Springer:  I don't know about everybody--I'll speak

for ourselves--we got along fine.  Here again, due to

their location and our location, we didn't have any

problems.  And the Babbitts, particularly Paul Babbitt,

who was president of the organization; and Ralph Bilby,

who headed up the organization for a while, he was

president of the organization for a while--I'm not

aware of any bad feelings.  There may have been some,

but I'm not aware of them, if there were.

   

   Cole:  And if you could go back and change anything

about your life, or your work, would you do that?

   

   

   Springer:  No, I don't think so.  I enjoyed it.  As

I say, I was glad I was out there when I was out there.

I wouldn't be crazy about goin' back out there today.

No, I enjoyed it, and it was a good time of our lives,

a good place to grow up.  We had all the animals and

everything that we wanted, and all this sort of stuff.

I think my childhood and my early growing-up…  And I

still have a lot of Navajo friends on the reservation.

I wouldn't change anything.  No, I don't think so, I

don't think I would.

   

   Cole:  Another thing that popped into my mind:  You

mentioned you went to college.  Where did you go to

school?

   

   Springer:  I graduated from the University of

Colorado.

   

   Cole:  And that was in business administration?

   

   Springer:  Yes, that was my degree.

   

   Underhill:  When you were young, did you have a

particular dream or aspiration for adulthood?

   

   Springer:  Oh, yeah, sure, like most young people.

I couldn't wait to get out of school.  I was gonna set

the world on fire.  Of course you don't do that, but I

thought I could.  Sure, I was gonna really make things

pop, but you find out after you're out of school for a

while that things don't work quite that way.  So I had

to fall into the mold.

   

   Cole:  And did you imagine that you would be in the

trading business?

   

   Springer:  No! I didn't!  Prior to going back to

work out there, working for the organization, I worked

a couple of years as assistant manager at a motel, and

I kind of liked that.  I thought maybe that would be

the way to go.  But after a while, I got tired of that,

so I didn't want that.  So I went back to the

reservation and stayed there.

   

   Cole:  Was there a name for your organization?

   

   Springer:  No, as opposed to, say, an organization

like the Babbitts'.  They operated under one name, but

we operated as--because of the different kinds of

partnerships that we had going--we operated under just

the individual store names.  They were under a central

management, but they weren't combined any other way.

They weren't, as you say, under one name or something

like that.  No, they weren't handled that way, because

we had different partnerships.  So it was handled that

way.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else you'd like to add?

   

   Springer:  No, I don't think so.  I will go back and

say I certainly enjoyed my tenure on the reservation,

and I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.  I

thoroughly enjoyed it, and don't think that I have

missed anything by being out there, and not have been

in a border town or city or something like that.  I

don't think I've missed anything.

   

   Underhill:  What did you learn from your early

association with the Navajo, another culture?

   

   Springer:  Oh, tolerance maybe.  And things may not

always be as they seem.  As I say, I enjoy the Navajo

people, and respect them, and still do to this day.  As

I say, I think it's a little unfortunate that they

haven't progressed a little bit further, faster, but

they're a very large tribe, and it's probably gonna

take a lot of time before they are able to do some of

these things.

   

   Steiger:  I've got one question.  Just as somebody

who was so involved with the accounting, et cetera:  Is

there a time period that you could identify as the

heyday of trading, when times were best for the

traders?  And if so, what was that time?  Why was that?

in terms of just making money.

   

   Springer:  I would say probably the late fifties and

the mid-sixties, that time period through there.

   

   Steiger:  And why would that have been?

   

   Springer:  Well, for one thing, we were pretty much

being left alone, for one thing.  We didn't have a lot

of regulation, either from the state or from the tribe

or from the federal government, or anybody else.  We

were pretty much left alone for a while.  We weren't

being bothered and we pretty much--business was good,

and prices were fairly good.  By prices, I'm talking

about for the things that the Navajo had to sell, like

the sheep and the cattle and the wool and rugs, and

these kings of things.  So I would say that period.

   

   Cole:  Maybe you can't answer this, but how were

income taxes calculated when there was so much barter

and trade?

   

   Springer:  Whose income tax?

   

   Cole:  The trader's income tax.

   

   Springer:  Well, it didn't make any difference.  You

came, when you got through at the end of the year, you

had either made a profit, or you had a loss.  And those

were in dollars and cents.  So in fact, it was like any

other tax return.  As I say, you either made money or

you lost money.  Some of the old-time traders used to

say, "Well, if you had money in the bank, you know you

made money.  And if you didn't have any money in the

bank, you lost."  Well, it wasn't quite that simple.

But it got denominated down, even though you were

bartering, at a point where in fact you knew whether

you had made money or not.  As I say, because you

didn't hang onto these things, you disposed of them,

and you either made money on 'em, or you lost money on

'em.  So that in fact, at the end of the year, you

either did have money in the bank, or you didn't.  In

fact, you could work that down to a normal P&L [profit

and loss statement] or a normal balance sheet or

something like that.  There was a lot of things that

during the year that might be a little foggy, but at

the end of the year, you tied it down where you could

identify it.

   

   Cole:  Being a larger trading organization, did you

just unload your rugs and unload your pi�on nuts when

you could?  Or did you ever stockpile those and sell

them at a more profitable time?

   

   Springer:  We never did do that.  There were people

that did, that did in fact stockpile and this sort of

thing.  We never did.  At the end of the season,

whatever it was, we disposed of 'em, and didn't hold

anything over, or anything like that.  We didn't get

into any kind of speculation or anything.  Everything

was disposed of at the end of the season, whatever

season it was.

   

   Cole:  Anything else, Lew?

   

   Steiger:  No.  I won't be thinkin' of it until we're

in the car, drivin' away.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Well, on behalf of NAU and the UITA, thank

you for your time.

   

   Springer:  Well, thank you!  I've enjoyed the

participation in this, I've enjoyed it.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]