RUTH McGEE INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   [Preliminary chitchat not transcribed.]

   

   This is Brad Cole [with Northern Arizona University

Library, Special Collections].  We're in San Juan, New

Mexico.  It's February 11, [1998], a little bit after

four o'clock in the afternoon.  We're here with Ruthie

McGee and we're going to ask her some questions about

her life, working on Navajo [Reservation] trading

posts. [Also present are Elijah Blair, who was in

partnership with Roscoe and Ruth in a trading post at

one time; Lew Steiger, who is operating the recording

equipment; and Karen Underhill, from Northern Arizona

University.]

   

   Cole:  I'm going to start by asking you when and

where you were born.

   McGee:  Okay, I was born in Farmington in 1917,

February 19, 1917.  When I was ten days old, my mother,

in a wagon, took me to Toadlena in February.  Isn't

that something?

   Cole:  That's amazing.  And who were your parents?

   McGee:  George and Lucy Bloomfield.

   Cole:  And where did they live then?

   McGee:  They lived at the trading post at Toadlena.

   Cole:  So then you grew up at the trading post

there?

   McGee:  Yes.

   Cole:  And how many brothers and sisters did you

have?

   McGee:  There were eight of us--one sister died when

I was real young, three or four.  All raised there at

Toadlena, went to school there till the eighth grade.

Then we had to be farmed out to go to high school and

college.

   Cole:  And where were you farmed out to?

   McGee:  Oh, I lived with some friends that had

Newcomb Trading Post, which is about fifteen miles from

us.  Their daughter was my best friend, and I lived

with them for two years, and then I lived in

Springville, Utah, one year with an aunt, and went to

Albuquerque one year, and then went to Provo, Utah,

BYU, to college--just went there one year is all, to

college.

   Cole:  And growing up on the trading post, what were

some of your memories or remembrances of being a small

girl, small child there?

   McGee:  It was a great way to live, really neat.  We

had a real nice home, Daddy and Mother, and made a real

nice home.  Daddy had nice yards and had really made a

lot of beautiful rock work with gardens and lawns.  We

lived right near the mountain, and that was fun,

because we were just like a bunch of goats, runnin' up

and down the mountain (chuckles) having fun, and

growing up there with my brothers and sisters.  What

else?

   Cole:  Did your mom and dad put you to work in the

trading post?

   McGee:  No, we didn't…  Well, my older sister,

Fern, and Vernon worked in the store a lot--I didn't.

I didn't work in the store.  Probably my brother Vernon

________--yes, he worked in the store, too, but I don't

think that us three younger girls worked in the store.

Marilene might have, after she was married.  But we

were just kids growin' up, havin' fun.

   Cole:  Did you have relationships with the Navajo

children or the Navajo people?

   McGee:  Oh, we went to school with them.  They had

the government school where most of the children went

to school, but because of our school, we had to have so

many, and I don't know how many that was.  We had to

have so many children to be able to have a county-paid

teacher, and our state paid teachers.  There was the

minister and his family--Christian for a minister and

our family.  And so we recruited some of the Navajo

children that lived close around to come in, so that

we'd have enough children to qualify for a school.  We

had one teacher [who] taught all eight grades in one

room.

   Cole:  Did those Navajo children actually come and

live at the trading post?, or were they close

enough…

   McGee:  No, those children were close enough that

they could just walk to school like we did.  The ones

at the government school boarded there.  They were a

boarding school.  But the ones that went to our school

just were our neighbors.

   Cole:  Did you ever ride horses or anything like

that at that age?

   McGee:  Yes.  In fact, my father bought me the

prettiest little filly, and I rode her a lot.  I think

I was the only one of the children that he bought a

horse for (chuckles) just because I liked to ride.

   Cole:  As you were growing up, did you imagine that

you would become a trader at some point, then?

   McGee:  Probably never thought about that, but I was

sure glad that I met a nice Indian trader.

   Cole:  When did you meet your husband?  Tell us a

little bit about that.

   McGee:  In 1936.  I met him Fourth of July 1936.

Married him on the thirtieth of August.  When I saw a

good thing…  Well, in fact, he told me--I was gonna

go back to school--and he said, "Either you go back to

school, or we get married."  So we got married!

(laughter)

   Cole:  So did you meet him at your parents' trading

post (McGee:  No.) or in town?

   McGee:  I met him at a dance in Farmington.  My

sister and my brother and I and some other young people

had gone from Toadlena up to Mesa Verde and spent the

Fourth of July and then came back to Farmington and

went to a dance there.  And my kids sure look at me

sort of askance when I tell 'em that there was also a

bar there.  (laughter)

   But before this, I have to tell you--and it's in

Roscoe's history here, that I have.  My mother and dad

were having a hard time at the trading post because

Daddy had bought up a lot of sheep from all of the

other Indian traders, and they trailed them to Gallup.

They didn't haul them, they had to trail them.  And

when they got there--they were contracted--and when

they got there, the contractor couldn't honor the

contract, and so they just had the sheep and it was

storming, and they just lost all the sheep.  And Dad

was responsible, because he'd bought up all of the

other trading posts that were close.  So he was in

financial trouble, and so he went to work for the

government, left the store for Vernon, my brother, to

run.  What he was doing--and again, it's [in his]

history--I'll probably give you a copy of that--they

were using Navajo labor, and if the Navajos--they were

just working, they only got $1.50 a day--but if they

had a horse and a scraper, they got $3.50, I think it

was.  And they were building reservoirs and that kind

of work, and Daddy was the supervisor over that.  And

they had stopped at the Red Mesa Trading Post, because

that was an area where they were working part of the

time, and met my husband and Jewel, who you visited

with, and they liked the young man, and Daddy told him,

"Well, I've got three pretty daughters.  I would like

you to meet them."  (laughter)

   So at the dance--back to the dance--this young man

came up and asked me to dance, and I said, "Oh, I can't

dance with you, I don't know you."  He said, "Well, I

know you, so come on and dance."  So we danced.

(laughter)  And then we had a date the next night, went

to a movie.  My folks had a house in Shiprock, a

government house that they were living in, and that's

where I stayed instead of going back to Toadlena, so I

could go on this date.  That's how it happened.

   Cole:  And that was Roscoe?

   McGee:  That was Roscoe.

   Cole:  I've heard everybody refer to him as "Rock."

Was that a nickname then?

   McGee:  That was a nickname, Rock.  Uh-huh, that's

what I called him.  When I met him, he was Roscoe.

(laughs)

   Cole:  And where was he from?

   McGee:  He was born in Fruitland, but he went to

work.  Even when he was in high school, he went to work

at Lukachukai, the first time he was in a trading post.

He worked there the summer--and for Kennedy?

   Blair:  Earl.

   McGee:  Earl Kennedy, yeah.  And then I can't tell

you which year he was there--Red Rock--and worked for

_____ Carlos there.  It was while he was working at Red

Rock that there was Shel Dustin and Bert Dustin had the

old Progressive Mercantile where all the traders in

this area bought their goods.  And so they heard about

this Red Mesa Trading Post that was for sale.  An

Indian man by the name of Barton owned it.  So Bert

Dustin and Sheldon Dustin backed Roscoe and gave him

the money to buy it with, to buy Red Mesa.  And this is

the agreement and it's interesting.  This is the legal

document [for the] buying [of] Red Mesa.  That was on

the fourth day of October 1953.  So he moved there with

just one room.  When they went out there, Roscoe and a

friend, Rigg Cardon [phonetic spelling] went out there,

and all they had for a week was oatmeal (laughter)

because that's all there was there.  (laughter)  That

was interesting.

   I'd like to go now into… if you want to talk about

Roscoe.

   Cole:  Sure, that'd be great.  (quick tape check)

   McGee:  I was so glad to find that.

   Cole:  I'm glad you did.  _____________.  I'm

curious, Ruthie, do you speak Navajo?

   McGee:  A little--store Navajo, not much else, not

like _____.  Roscoe could speak, sit down and visit

with the Indians, just like a friend, you know.

   Cole:  Did you learn your store Navajo as a small

child?

   McGee:  Partly.  And some Navajo when we were

growin' up.  I was lazy and didn't learn their

language, and I'm sorry about that, because it is a

beautiful language, it's a soft language.  If I was in

the house, and in the store, I could tell as soon as a

white man came--just the tone was different.

   Cole:  So once you married Roscoe, what trading post

did you move to then?

   McGee:  To Red Mesa.  He had built one room onto the

store, and also a wareroom.  He did add a wareroom, and

a cellar that he built.  It was one big room.  We had

kitchen, bedroom, and dining room and everything in

that one room.

   I�ll just read you a bit.  (quoting from Roscoe's

history)  He said, "There was no foundation and the

rocks walls of the store and lots of unwanted creatures

would just come through the holes in the wall and in

the floor.  My brother Joe and I did not like the

sandrock floors"--they had sandrock floors first--"with

the mud in between the rocks, 'cause when you swept the

floors, you soon had cracks between them, and you would

have to keep filling the cracks with mud.  We decided

to put a cement floor over the rock floors, and we

thought it would keep out the varmints and centipedes.

   "A few months after, things were going along fairly

well, and we bought about 4 two-by-fours and twelves.

And we would lay one piece at a time, and we

hauled…"  They laid a wood floor over that.  This is

a little disconnected.  Okay, guess I'll just have to

read it like it is.  "We were going along fairly well,

we'd lay one piece at a time.  Then we hauled rocks and

gravel in our pickup, from the wash about ten miles

from the store.  And every time we could get a few

dollars ahead, we would buy a few bags of cement and

move the two-by-fours over, about four feet across the

width of the room, and mix the cement with a shovel in

a wheelbarrow, and pour that piece.  And then after a

few days, when we could get a little more money, we'd

pour some more cement.  And finally, after about a year

or two, we had the floors all done, except for the room

we lived in."  I think he's talking about the store

floors.  "We decided to put a wood floor in this room,

so we put in two-by-fours over the rock floor and

leveled them, and nailed the floor of grooved lumber

over them.  The mud plaster walls were not straight, so

in places the floor did not fit against the wall close,

and we didn't worry about that much at this time.

   "We always had a rifle and a shotgun loaded, leaning

against the wall, because we never knew when we might

need one--with the sheep and goats in our corrals and

the coyotes and the lynx cats would come and kill the

sheep and goats.  They would come around the store at

night.  One evening we were sitting and reading and I

looked over at the other side of the room and a

rattlesnake had his head about six inches out of the

space where the floor didn't fit against the wall,

looking us over.  No big deal to us.  I just reached

over, picked up the shotgun, and shot his head off.

(laughter)  The only bad thing about it, part of the

top of the floor disappeared with the head.  (laughter)

This happened three or four times, so as we had not put

a sub-floor in, we laid another grooved lumber floor to

the wall, and then we filled the fireplace with rock

and worked and plastered over them like the rest of the

wall, and bought a small coal stove to use.  So with

the cook stove, the room was warm.  And while we had

snakes and other varmints under the floor, they

couldn't come through and live with us."

   That was a little disconnected there.  I don't know

if you want me to read all this.

   Cole:  We can…

   McGee:  I'll just read a little bit, this little

part.  "Times were real hard and no work and no money

in 1933 and 1934.  Jewel and I lived very carefully,

even to what we ate, to make a go of it.  We bought

lambs from the Indians as soon as they came down off

the mountain in October.  In 1933 we paid four cents a

pound for them.  We bought about 500 head, and we drove

them to Shiprock and sold them to Bruce Bernard at

Shiprock for 4� cents a pound.  I think they averaged

about $2.50 to $3.00 a head.  Jewel trapped coyotes and

bobcats and foxes and badgers all winter while I ran

the store to help out.

   "In 1935 and 1936 and 1937, the government, under

Franklin D. Roosevelt, started many public works

programs.  About all I knew very much about was that

program that affected the Reservation and the Navajos.

Navajos were given jobs with the BIA, bosses,

supervision, developing springs, building reservoirs

for stock water and all types of erosion control work.

They would pay the Navajo $1.50 a day for hand labor,

and if the Indian had a team and a scraper, they would

pay them $3.50 a day."  And I told you that.  "And they

had to buy hay and oats for their horses out of this.

These programs saved the Navajos' and traders' lives.

I don't think we could have made it otherwise, as

sheep, goats, and cattle, and wool, and mohair were

hardly worth anything.  We bought a few Navajo rugs and

saddle blankets, but couldn't get very much for them.

The government, during these years--1934, 1935, 1936,

and 1937--carried forth a great reduction program,

making Navajo stockmen sell their sheep, goats, cattle,

and horses for give-away prices."  And I think this is

interesting.  "And they had to sell them or go to jail.

They paid $1.00 a head for sheep and goats, $5.00 for

horses, and $7.50 for cows.  These were supposed to

have been hauled out and butchered to be eaten or

canned for food.  Roads were poor and it was impossible

to haul all of them off the Reservation, so thousands

were shot or killed and dumped into washes or other

places and left to rot."  I thought that part was

interesting to maybe put in this.

   Cole:  You weren't married at that time?

   McGee:  No, [I was] living at Toadlena during that

time.

   Underhill:  Do you remember that at your parents'

trading post?

   McGee:  Yes.  But those were really hard times, but

we didn't know it.

   Cole:  Do you remember 'em actually slaughtering the

animals at Toadlena, too?

   McGee:  No, I don't remember that.  I think I was

probably--well, I wasn't too young.  I should have

known it.  I was probably most of the time away at

school, during that time.

   Blair:  See, this is where--you know, I told you all

this is what happened.  I'm sure that Rock told me

this, 'cause he experienced it.  Other people said

different things, you know, but Rock saw this, that's

what happened.

   McGee:  It was a hard time.  And then I told you

about this, about how my father and mother…  My

mother always went with Dad, camped out and lived in a

tent out there on the Reservation while he was doing

this work.  And I told you about that, so I won't read

that.  He said quite often they'd come by and stay with

them there at the trading post.  He said, "I liked them

real well.  I visited with them, I found out they had

an unmarried teenage girl.  Ruth was the older one, and

so I decided I would like to meet her."  (laughter)

   Cole:  Did you ever suspect your dad was a

matchmaker like that?

   McGee:  No.  I did hear Dad say once that he was a

nice boy, but he swore a lot (chuckles) and sometimes

told not very nice stories.  (laughter)  Otherwise, he

liked him real well.  I told about this, anyway.

   Cole:  Well, once you arrived at the trading post

with Rock, did you become more active in trading

yourself, too?

   McGee:  After a while.  The Navajos didn't have much

regard for the women a lot of the time.  Well, I can

remember they did for my mother, but when we drove up

to the store after we'd gone on a little trip for a

honeymoon, the Indians all came out, and they looked so

glad.  And I thought, "Oh, they're glad to see me!"

They didn't pay any attention to me--they were glad to

have Roscoe back at the store.  They didn't pay much

attention to me until after I'd been there at the store

for a while and finally had our first baby.  That was

quite an experience.  We took our first baby out there,

and that was a long ways at that time.  How long did it

take to go on those roads?  I forget.  Seemed like it

took us four or five hours on those roads at that time,

to go out there.

   Blair:  Sixty miles.

   McGee:  From Kirtland to…  It was quite a trip.

Anyway, out there without not knowing anything about

babies.  And then our old neighbor lady, Kits�iilii,

Kits�iilii�s wife, we called her.  She came in, she had

her blanket on.  She took my baby and wrapped her up in

that blanket and hugged her right up to her.  (laughs)

I thought, "Oh, dear!"  I didn't know if that was a

good idea or not, but they just really loved our babies

and helped us take care of them.  That was a good

experience.  She was a good old…

   Cole:  Well, when you carried on trade, or Rock

carried on trade, how did that work?

   McGee: What do you mean?

   Cole:  Like, if you could, maybe tell us about what

a typical experience [was like] when a Navajo would

come in to get goods or whatever.

   McGee:  Okay.  Well, our store then wasn't like the

stores now.  We had what we called a counter, and they

had the bull pen.  We always took everything off the

shelf and put it on the counter that they wanted to

buy.  I didn't work in the store much at first--only on

the days that Roscoe would have to go to town to get

merchandise, and then he'd leave me to run the store.

I remember one time, I was taking care of it, and like

I said, I didn't speak Navajo as well.  Now diisgis

means that you're kind of addlepated.  And hanidziih

means that you can talk.  And so the Indian was tryin'

to tell me that (laughs) I could talk some, and I

thought he was tellin' me I was crazy.  (laughter)

That made me feel pretty cross about him.  But I could

trade.  I knew enough that I could trade.  It was all

with no cash.  They sometimes would have a goat skin or

a sheep skin to sell.  We'd maybe give him a dime for

it, and they'd trade it right back for a bottle of pop.

So about all we had in the cash drawer was dimes and

nickels, and maybe a fifty-cent piece or two.  That's

the way we traded, that's all.

   Cole:  When the Navajos would come, would they

mostly come in on horses, wagons?  Would they stay?

   McGee:  Sometimes with wagons, but unless they lived

way down by the river, they didn't stay all night.

There was a hogan there, and [it] was available for

them to stay in at night.  It was just a business where

it was credit business.  We credited them until they

had their wool to sell or their sheep to sell, and

credit on their pawn.  Which--I don't think Roscoe ever

sold a piece of pawn of anybody's.  Sometimes he would

hang them out so they could kind of realize it, and

they didn't like that--they didn't like other people to

know that their pawn hadn't been redeemed.  So

sometimes that kind of encouraged them to come in and

take their pawn out.  But he didn't ever sell their

pawn, he carried them along.

   Cole:  Were you and Roscoe given nicknames?

   McGee:  Well, he was �Atsii� �ich��.  That means

"red hair," because he had red hair.  And I was just

�Am� y�zh�, "little mother."  (laughter)

   Cole:  And how long did you stay at Red Mesa?

   McGee:  Well, until we sold it to Brad for the first

time…  It was in late 1936 when Brad Blair was

working for us.  And Roscoe's father was killed.

Roscoe and his father had bought the Mancos Creek

Trading Post together, and his father was building it,

had moved it up on the highway.  When they bought it,

it was just  down by the river, just where I don't

know.  I have a picture of it here.

   Blair:  Ruth, ______ Brad came after the war, 1945.

   McGee:  Well, we went to Mancos Creek when Sharon

was a baby, and that was in 1937.

   Blair:  So then who was at Red Mesa?

   McGee:  I thought Brad was.  Couldn't have been?

   Blair:  Brad was in the Marine Corps during World

War II.  He was discharged in 1945, so…

   McGee:  Well, we were married in 1936, and Grace was

born in 1937, and Sharon was born in 1938.  So I guess

maybe it was about 1938, 1939.  I sure thought Brad was

there, running the trading post.

   Blair:  Brad was born in 1921.

   McGee:  Well, I'm mixed up there.  I do know that we

went to Mancos Creek … in 1938.  Might have been 1939

because Sharon wasn't crawling, she was just scooting

around.  Thirty-nine.  You're sure of that?

   Blair:  He was in the Marine Corps four years, all

during the war.  He went in, in 1941 and he got out in

1945.

   McGee:  Well, okay, I'm mixed up on that.  And I

don�t know who took it.

   Blair:  Just a couple of years.  You could have had

someone else in there, which really doesn't matter.

   McGee:  Well, Roscoe was working back and forth

between the two trading posts and we had to go to

Mancos Creek because his father was killed in an

automobile accident, and we had to go there and finish

building that building and taking care of it.  Then

Roscoe worked between the two, and I don't know who was

running it.  I sure thought Brad was.  And I thought we

sold him a half-interest in the store then, right after

that, at Red Mesa.

   Blair:  You did in 1945.

   Cole:  So Roscoe kept an interest in Red Mesa as

well as Mancos?

   McGee:  We had that till we sold it to Jewel and

Lavoy. And in between that time, Jewel and Roscoe

bought Mexican Water, and had Lij to go there.  I think

we sold you an interest in…

   Blair:  Not in Mexican Water.  I stayed there four

years and you sold me an interest in it.  I went to

Aneth (McGee:  Oh, that's right.) Rap Tanner [phonetic

spelling], and Roscoe bought out Rap's interest, and

then Roscoe and Ruth and I became partners in Aneth.

   McGee:  That's right.

   Blair:  See, there was Roscoe and Kelly and Jewel,

actually, in Mexican Water, is that right?

   McGee:  No, Kelly was over at Sweetwater.

   Blair:  Did he have a little interest in Mexican

Water?

   McGee:  Just Jewel and Roscoe.

   Blair:  Anyway, I went to Aneth after that.  Then I

became a partner with Roscoe__________.

   McGee:  Roscoe had bought Sweetwater while Kelly was

in prison in Germany, so that Kelly would have

something to come home to.  And so that's where Kelly

went.

   Cole:  What was the main product that you or your

husband purchased to sell?  Was it livestock, rugs, or

all of that?

   McGee:  Oh, livestock, wool, and rugs, hides--

whatever the Navajos had to sell.

   Cole:  And what would Roscoe do with the livestock

once he accumulated a lot of it?

   McGee:  Well, first, we always trailed our sheep.

As long as I was out there, we had to trail 'em to

Farmington.  And I have a good picture of that.  That's

a good one of that.  Brought them in.  That was a fun

experience.

   Blair:  We did at Mexican--Rock… [When we worked

at the?] Rock.

   Underhill:  I've never herded sheep, what's it like?

   McGee:  Herdin' sheep?  Well, I didn't herd sheep,

the Navajos herded.  Roscoe would go out every day with

'em.  When we were at Mancos Creek, he brought sheep

in.  That was when the third child came along.  I was

in the hospital with him, and Roscoe was bringin' the

sheep from Mancos Creek, which is the other side of

Shiprock, to Farmington.  He didn't come to see me the

whole ten days, and I was sure mad at him (laughter) at

that time.

   Cole:  Did you continue to ride horses once you were

married?

   McGee:  We rode till Roscoe was gone, died, but he

didn't ever want me to ride without him, so I just

haven't ridden a horse since he left.  But I don't have

any desire to.  What else was you gonna ask me?

   Cole:  I was sort of curious about, were you and

Roscoe involved in the Railroad Retirement Program, or

the Railroad Worker Program?

   McGee:  Yes, and that was a blessing for the Navajos

and the traders, too.  And like Roscoe said in [his

history], it was really a blessing for them, they could

go off and earn pretty good money.  And since they

didn't have their stock anymore, these railroad checks

were really a blessing to both of us.

   Cole:  What was your overall impression of the

Navajo people you worked with?

   McGee:  Good people.  Good people.  Couldn't ask for

better people than they were.

   Cole:  Do you feel like you learned anything from

them?

   McGee:  Yeah.  A lot.  Patience and kindness.  One

experience I'll just tell you how they were so good to

us.  We had these gas tanks that you pumped the gas up

on, and there was an outlet, I guess, for the air--an

air outlet is what it was.  And my little kids were

probably six, seven, eight--in there--and ______ went

out and struck a match by this outlet.  So here was

this fire comin' out.  I was just going, like a mother,

berserk, scared to death we could all blow up.  And

Roscoe calmly goes in, gets the fire extinguisher.  He

did jump over the counter.  (laughter)  Put the fire

out.  I was sittin' down on the porch, sittin' in front

of the store, just cryin' away 'cause I was so upset.

And this old man that we called "Sneak," he was a great

big Navajo man, wore a big hat with a high crown and

everything.  He came over and he put his arm around me,

and he said it was all right, all right.  And then he

went in the store and he said, "You go out there and

take care of her!"  Told Roscoe to go out and take care

of me.

   And then sometimes when I was havin' to carry coal

in the house, they'd come, the old men would come and

help me carry the coal in.  Just kind things like that.

They were caring people.

   Cole:  Do you feel they learned anything from you

and Rock?

   McGee:  Oh, I don't know.  (chuckles)  I hope they

learned that we were honest people--and we were.  I

think Roscoe was an honest Indian trader.  You hear

about the crooked Indian traders a lot, but I always

felt like Roscoe was a good, honest…  He tried to be

fair with them, and helped them where he could.

   Cole:  Did you have the opportunity to be involved

in many Navajo ceremonies, or did Rock?

   McGee: Not much, not like Carolyn and Brad did.  I

don't know why we didn't.  Roscoe did go.  And when I

was growing up we used to go to their ceremonies--their

y�ii bicheiis and their squaw dances and things like

that--but didn't really participate in them.  I think

Roscoe would go--I never did go to a marriage, but

Roscoe did, was invited to them.  I really didn't like

going to their y�ii bicheiis and things.  It was

interesting to me, but it was so much smoke, and I was

so uncomfortable.  We did go a lot.

   Cole:  You mentioned your three children.  How many

children did you have?

   McGee:  We had seven.

   Cole:  And did all of them grow up at trading posts?

   McGee:  Well, until…  When the oldest one was

six, we tried to send her off to school, to live with

my husband's mother, but we'd go and get her every

weekend and she'd cry because we'd take her back.  So,

we�d keep her out of school.  She went to school about

half the time that year.  So the next year, I moved to

Farmington.  From then on I was only weekends at the

trading post--and summers, we spent summers.  When

Elijah and Clay would go on vacation, we'd go to

Mexican Water, take care of it.

   Blair:  My relief help.

   Cole:  How did the children like living at the

trading post?

   McGee:  They liked it.  It was a good way to grow

up, a good place to grow up.  My mother always kinda

worried because we weren't exposed to all the things

that the children in town and cities were exposed to,

but then my Aunt ______ said, "They're not exposed to a

lot of things that wouldn't be so good for them."  And

that's right, we weren't.  We had a good life at the

trading posts--secure, that's a good secure [life].

And I think my children feel the same way.  When I hear

them talk, they feel like it was a good, secure way to

grow up.

   Cole:  You sort of seem to be describing the trader

sort of almost like a real servant of the community you

worked in.  What other kinds of services?  Did you do

anything with the mail, or cashing checks, or anything

like that?

   McGee:  Well, of course we cashed their checks,

'cause that was the only…  Roscoe would always go to

the bank before their payday to be sure we had cash

enough to cash their checks.  My father and mother were

like "doctors" to a lot of them, helped them.  Came to

them for advice.  And I think they came to Roscoe for

advice a lot, what they were to do.  And when there was

a death, they were always there to help out for

something like that.

   Cole:  Did you ever have a post office at any of

your trading posts?

   McGee:  Not at Red Mesa.  There was a post office at

Toadlena.  My mother was the postmistress there.  Then

my sister Grace was postmistress after her.  No, mail

was few and far between at Red Mesa.  (chuckles)  We

were lucky to get mail once a week.  At first, when we

first married, sometimes it'd be three months in the

wintertime, between mail.  (chuckles)

   Cole:  How did you get your news from the outside

world, then?

   McGee:  We had a radio.  It was run by what we

called the wind charger.  It charged a battery, and

Roscoe would only let us have it on in the evenings, so

he could listen to the news.  And that's how we heard

about the World War, when we declared war.  And then,

of course, we finally got what we called the power

plant, and we had electricity and refrigerators and

lights.

   Cole:  What were the power plants?

   McGee:  They were Delcos.  Isn't that right?  Seems

like they were Delco.  Were they diesel?

   Blair:  The first one was a Delco gasoline plant,

small one, and later on we went to a diesel, which was

a Woody diesel.

   McGee:  Oh, that's right.

   Blair:  Witte.  One-cylinder Witte, 10KW.  That's

what we all ran--Red Mesa, Mexican Water, whatever.

But when I first went to Mexican Water, they had this

little 5KW which actually was a gasoline Delco.

Actually, I think it was, is what you were thinkin'

about.

   McGee:  They were wonderful!  (laughter)  It was

really wonderful to have a refrigerator.  (laughter)

   Blair:  When we got the Witte�s--see, it ran all the

time.  The original ones only ran when you wanted power

in the evening.  The diesel ran all the time so you had

power all the time.  We was in Utopia ____________.

   McGee:  Yeah, we really were livin' it up!  (laughs)

   Cole:  Did you see much impact from World War II at

the trading post?

   McGee:  I don't think we felt it as much as they did

in towns.  Of course we were rationed with our sugar

and gasoline and things like that.  But otherwise, I

don't think we felt it that much.  Roscoe did sign up

for the draft, but they didn't call him up, because I

guess they felt he was needed at the trading post.

   Cole:  Were there any Navajos that you know of that

were drafted or enlisted?

   McGee:  Yes, some of them went, but I don't know

whether they were drafted or volunteered, but they did

go _____.  Ralph Begay, from Sweetwater, I remember

particularly.  Oh, who was it from Red Mesa?  I can't

remember.

   Cole:  Sort of curious, because I know that a lot of

Navajos would go away to boarding school and you had

the railroad man, et cetera.  Did you have any part in

helping families communicate to each other?

   McGee:  Well, at Red Mesa, a lot of those children

did have to go off to school.  They had started to

school at Teec Nos Pos, and then they bused them in

buses to there.  But mostly they didn't go to school.

They sure didn't like going, being taken away from

their homes, put in boarding schools.  In fact, there

at Toadlena, they'd run away, a lot of the time.

They'd have to go and get 'em and bring 'em back.  They

liked being with their families.  They didn't want to

be away from home.  But it was a good thing for them to

become educated.  But I've heard my dad tell about how

there in Shiprock where they'd run away, and

Mr. Shelton, who was the superintendent there, would

tie 'em up to a post.  Now, I think that was bad.  That

was a bad thing to do.  But to try to teach 'em not to

run away was what he was tryin' to do.  I guess he felt

like he had to be really tough with 'em, to teach 'em

not to run away.  That was not a good way to treat 'em.

That's my feeling.

   Cole:  Yeah.  So do you remember much about being

involved with the United Indian Traders Association, or

Roscoe's involvement?

   McGee:  Oh, Roscoe was involved from the very

beginning with it.  Very involved, in fact.  (sigh)

What do you call yourself?

   Blair:  Director.

   McGee:  He was one of the directors, very first

directors, and went back with when they went back to

Washington, D.C. to try to bring about better

relationships between the government and the Indian

traders.  He was one of them that went back there.  He

was involved up until the time he died.

   Cole:  Did he have a lease for the Red Mesa Post, do

you know?  Or how…

   McGee:  Well, at first it was no lease, it was just

like--when we first went out there, it was like you--it

wasn't a lease, it was just like you owned it, we owned

the store.  But then (sigh) I don't know when they

started putting out these…  Do you?

   Blair:  BIA started issuin' annual leases and…

Actually dealt with the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and

they sent annual leases out, and you renewed 'em every

year.

   McGee:  That's right.

   Blair:  Until later--then the tribe--I don't know

what period it started, 'cause…

   McGee:  That was about the time that we moved off

the Reservation, was when the tribe started…  Well,

we didn't move off, but Roscoe and I weren't out there

that much after that.  So he was out [there], but I

wasn't.

   Blair:  And the leases probably went up until 1955.

That's when we got the twenty-five-year leases.  That's

where Roscoe was in Washington to do this negotiation

and leases.

   McGee:  Trying to get the leases longer.

   Blair:  Yeah.

   McGee:  Actually, those leases were a big headache,

in my opinion.  It sort of put the trader in a bad

position.  It felt like that, because he had to bribe

'em to get 'em a lot of times.  True.  Not supposed to

say that.  (pause)  Oh, it's just my grandson.  Tell

'em to be quiet.  Or can you just cut it off for a

[second]?  (tape turned off and on)

   Cole:  So you were talking about the leases and why

you thought those were a problem.

   McGee:  Well, it was probably good in the end.

   Cole:  Do you remember any other issues the

Association was involved in, or any of their social

events?  Or does anything come to mind about that?

   McGee:  (whispers)  They were pretty wild.

   Cole:  Pretty what?

   McGee:  (laughs)  I shouldn't have said it!  They

were pretty wild.  (laughter)  They had a good time.

They had a good time, and they also had good meetings,

and I think solved a lot of problems--at the meetings.

I was more interested in the social part of it.

   Cole:  What was that like?

   McGee:  Dinner, dance--and a lot of drinkin'--which

I didn't like.  (laughter)  I don't think wives ever

did.  I don't remember you and Brad ever doing anything

like that.

   Blair: We didn�t get out and drink much.  May have

had us a drink, but not excessive______.

   McGee:  They didn't, they didn�t.  Just…  It's a

little worldly for me.

   Cole:  Your trading post in Mancos, was that off the

Reservation?

   McGee:  Mancos Creek?  (Cole:  Yeah.)  That was on

the Ute Reservation.

   Cole:  Did you see any difference between working at

a post there, versus working at one on the Navajo

Reservation?

   McGee:  Not that much.  The Utes were a little

different people, but mostly the same.  You probably

had Utes at Aneth, too.

   Blair:  The trade was a lot of Navajos, like Mancos

Creek, 'cause it�s right on the water, see, so you'd

get probably more Navajo than you'd think ______ as you

did the [route?], or at least ___________.

   McGee:  Well, it was mostly with Navajos, but we had

a few Utes that came in and traded there.  (pause)

They were a little different, Utes were--to me.

   Blair: They were different.

   Underhill:  How were they different?

   McGee:  Not as kindly a people, really.  Maybe I

just felt that, I don't know.  I don't know.

   Blair:  ________ friendly, harder to get to know.  A

little bit stuff like that.  Yeah, a little harder to

get, to really, __________ Navajos she said was real

tolerant and friendly, accepting.  Utes are a little

bit more reserved, I think.

   McGee:  And it was a different business with them.

I don't remember them having any rugs or anything like

that.  And most of our business was like that.  I think

Roscoe would sit down with his ladies who brought their

rugs in, and show them how they could make them better.

I really feel like he developed what we call the Red

Mesa Outline.  I mean, he helped the Indian ladies to

bring [out] this beautiful Red Mesa Outline rug.

   Cole:  Were there any particular weavers that come

to mind, that you remember, that were exceptional?

   McGee:  I could, but now I'm blank.

   Cole:  You'll think of it in the middle of the

night!  (laughter)

   McGee:  I know the Layman [phonetic spelling] lady,

and I don't know what her first name was.  I know it--

Daisy Layman I think it was, made beautiful Outline

rugs.  And Sneak's wives--he had two wives--Sneak's

wives would make beautiful Red Mesa Outlines.  In fact,

it felt like they were almost the best.  ________ I

have one of their rugs, it's really nice.  The

Kits�iiliis brought in nice rugs, too.  And then Roscoe

liked the Two Grey Hill rugs, and so he had bought a

couple from my father and took them over there and did

get some of the ladies there to start making the Two

Grey Hill rug in the natural colors, and I have a few

of those, too.  They look just like the ones that were

made at Two Grey Hills and Toadlena.

   Cole:  You mentioned that the one fellow had two

wives.  Was that a common thing with Navajo, do you

know?

   McGee:  Not real often, but he did--sisters that he

was married to.  The government frowned on that.

(child runs up to Ruth and whispers: Grandma, ____ I

got some new knee-pads!)

   Cole:  And who's this?

   McGee:  This is my great-grandson, Jonah, and his

grandma, Reggie.

   Cole:  Can you say hello, Jonah?  (apparently he's

too shy)

   McGee: (in low voice, to the child) Okay, you can

go.  Go with Reggie.  That�s a good boy.

   Cole:  How do you feel that trading has changed over

time from when you first started, maybe until you

finally got out of it?

   McGee:  Oh, how can you express it?  It used to be--

I would call it a friendly relationship.  Now, it's

commercial.  I don't know how else to explain it.

   Cole:  When did Roscoe and you finally sell out of

the trading business?

   McGee:  Well, I sold Mexican Water--my part of

Mexican Water--after he died.  I couldn't handle all of

that.  It was all I could do to just take care of this.

And we had sold Red Mesa to Lavoy…  (shuffles

papers)  I thought I had that document.  I'm not sure

if I do or not.  (shuffles papers)  I'm getting nervous

now.

   Col e:  You mentioned how trading changed over time.

Did you see a similar kind of change in the Navajo

culture?

   McGee:  Uh-huh.  As they become more educated.  And

I think it's wonderful.  [END SIDE A, BEGIN SIDE B]  A

lot of people say that they've become more arrogant and

pushy.  I don't know, but I see these young people,

educated, being able to just go forward and do

wonderful things.  And I'm pleased to see them be able

to do this, to better their lives.

   Cole:  What are some of your favorite memories of

being in the trading business?

   McGee:  (big sigh)  Well, I enjoyed the--(phone

rings) I think Reggie�ll get it.  I enjoyed our

relationship with the Navajo people--they're good

people.  I enjoyed that, their friendship.  And I

enjoyed being at the trading post, it was a good life.

I don't know just how you want me to answer that.

   Cole:  Any way you'd like to.  That's great, like

that.

   McGee:  As far as family, it certainly brought about

a close family relationship, unit--I feel like.  But as

far as trading with the Navajo, they're our friends.

   Cole:  I'm sort of curious, to backtrack a little

bit, I know that you at one time hired Elijah to work

for you.  Maybe tell us a little bit about that, and

also maybe did you hire other very young people?

   McGee:  Well, Brad was pretty young when he came.

We nearly always had somebody to help us.  Well, not

always at the store.  When I married Roscoe, he had an

older man working for him, Buke Moppin [phonetic

spelling].  And he was quite an old character--just

swore like a [hucan?].  (all chuckle)  And I wasn't

used to that…

   What were we talking about?  (laughter)  You just

brought that memory back.

   Underhill:  Why did you and Roscoe stay in the

business?

   McGee:  Why did we stay in the business?  Well,

maybe we didn't know any better.  We liked it, it was a

good way to live.  And then Roscoe and his brothers

bought what we called the Benerd [phonetic spelling]

Ranch and the Rimhall [phonetic spelling] Ranch out

where Nappy [phonetic spelling] is now, and they began

buying up Navajo cattle to put there.  In fact, that's

why they originally bought that land, was to put the

Navajo cattle that we bought, to take them to.  And

then we just finally decided we would raise registered

cattle, registered stock.  That had nothing to do with

trading posts, except that we did buy the stock and put

it there.

   [END OF INTERVIEW]