EVELYN JENSEN INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   This is Karen Underhill with Northern Arizona

University.  We're here with Evelyn Yazzie Jensen,

Oljato Trading Post.  It is February 10, 1998, about

3:35 in the afternoon.  Lew Steiger is operating the

camera.

   

   Underhill:  Thank you for agreeing to do this today.

I'd like to start, Evelyn, with your background--maybe

the clan you were born to and the clan you were born

for.

   Jensen:  Now, I can say this in Navajo, right?

(laughs)

   Underhill:  Yes, you may!  (laughs)  Then you can

tell us what the clan name is.

   Jensen:  Well, I was Bit�ahnii Clan.  Most of the

people here at Oljato are the of the Bit�ahnii Clan, so

even though I wasn't born and raised here, I came back

to my Bit�ahnii upbringing, I guess, so to speak.  And

I was born for T��han�, and my maternal grandfather is

�sh��h� and my paternal grandfather is _______.  And

what else would you like to know?

   Underhill:  Where were you born?

   Jensen:  I was born on Black Mesa, south of Kayenta--

Black Mesa, Arizona, in 1954.  I was born there.

Actually, my mother was going to pick up wood, so I was

actually born at a wood pile, I wasn't born in the

hospital.

   Underhill:  How many brothers and sisters do you

have?

   Jensen:  I have three brothers and one sister.  We

had two other brothers that died in their infancy, so

we're kind of a small family.

   Underhill:  What were you doing in the early years?

Was your family raising sheep?

   Jensen:  My father is from Black Mesa--that is their

grazing area.  And he met my mother, who is from the El

Capitan, Arizona, area.  And like I said, my

grandmother grew up here, and my mother was raised

here.  So when my mother met my father, they moved to

Black Mesa and they made a home there.  They mostly

raised cattle, sheep, and horses.  And my mother was a

rug weaver, and she also took care of the livestock.

When my father went to a lot of the jobs into other

states, like working on the railroads, or even to

Barstow, California, working with the ammunitions, my

mother did a lot of the upbringing of the kids and

sending us to school.  A lot of times she didn't have

any money to buy groceries for us, so she would weave a

small rug, hitchhike to Kayenta or one of the nearest

trading posts, and therefore get some groceries for us

that way.

   Underhill:  When you were a little girl, did you

both herd sheep and learn to weave, or at different

times did different things?

   Jensen:  My mother tried to make a weaver out of me,

but I was kind of more of an outdoorsy person.  I love

horses, so any excuse to get out and ride horses or go

on a cattle roundup, that's what I would do.  So I

didn't really learn how to weave rugs all that well.

My mother told me that my first rug was just a small

rug, it didn't have any very fancy designs, it was just

stripes.  And I took it to [Tsaya?] Trading Post, and I

got ten dollars for it!  And I think I bought some

groceries, a pair of shoes, and I had some change left,

and my mother said I saved that money forever.  She

asked me why I didn't spend the money, and I said,

"Well, I'm just saving it for a rainy day."  (laughter)

And that's the only rug that I remember ever making.

   Underhill:  Do you remember what it looked like,

what design you ended up with?

   Jensen:  It was--I don't know, they were just

horizontal lines with just the different colors.  It

didn't really have a particular [design (Tr.)]--more

like the saddle blanket design.  I remember that.  I

haven't tried weaving since!  (laughs)

   Underhill:  When you would talk to your mother about

weaving, or watch her weaving, would she know what

shape the rug was going to take, or did it really just

flow?  The traders talk about influencing designs, but

the Navajo women I have spoken to say "no, that you sit

down and it happens, it takes on life."

   Jensen:  I think the designs that she made, she more

or less learned from my grandmother.  They had maybe

four or five different patterns that they used, and

they stuck to that particular design.  I mean, once she

sat down, she knew which design she was gonna make, and

she stuck with that.  I do remember that she made me

card a lot of the wool and spin a lot of the wool, too,

and that wasn't a really good job for me either.

(laughter)  Like I said, I would rather be off riding

horses or on some adventure.

   Underhill:  Did she transition to pre-dyed wool at

any point?  Or did she always make her own yarn?

   Jensen:  She did transfer over to the commercial

colors, because mainly it was very easy.  If she stuck

to the traditional, then she would have to look for the

herbs, and she would have to boil--it was just a long

process, and I think the monetary value on that, it

wasn't worth the trouble to go through all that, rather

than just, you know, open up a package and have your

colors.

   Underhill:  Did she weave for your family as well,

or did all of her rugs go to the trading post?

   Jensen:  All of her rugs in the early days went to

the trading post--mainly because she had to, you know,

provide a living for her family.  Now, maybe within the

last ten years, she has been weaving for us, like an

heirloom.  She's been giving us rugs.  I think I got

most of her rugs.  And I still have her weave.  She's

very poor in her eyesight.  They consider her

40 percent blind in one eye and in one eye she's

completely blind.  And she still weaves and I sell her

blankets.

   Underhill:  Wonderful.  What trading post did you

visit first?  And do you have memories of being small

and going to the trading post?

   Jensen:  I remember going to, I think my first trip

ever to a trading post was [Tsaya?] Trading Post.

Pretty much it was set up like the old trading post

style with the bull pen.  I remember looking at all the

candy and everything.  Everything looked so good and so

delicious.  (laughs)  And then there was a trading post

in Kayenta--I believe it was called the Kayenta Trading

Post.  I went there a lot, because when I started going

to boarding school, we would have our weekend trip to

the trading post to buy goodies.

   Underhill:  And what were the popular items when you

were small?

   Jensen:  Mainly candy bars.  My favorite one was the

"Look" candy bar.  (laughter)  And what amazes me now

is even if you had only a quarter, you could buy a

whole bunch of stuff.  You could buy stuff for a penny,

for two pennies.  And you take a quarter and you just

felt like you did a whole week's worth of shopping.

Now, a quarter won't even buy you a bubble gum, maybe.

   Underhill:  What did you think of the Anglo trader

the first time you saw him, or when you were small?

   Jensen:  I think the first time that I had seen an

Anglo--maybe not a trader, but a doctor, and I didn't

have a very good experience with that, mainly because I

was sick.  But the trader, the Anglo trader, to me

seemed to always be friendly, laughing, and carrying on

with the Navajo ladies.  (chuckles)

   Underhill:  And did the traders you met speak

Navajo?

   Jensen:  I don't really remember that, but I think

they did.  Certain times after I started going to

school, I had to go in there with my parents and

interpret, and I did a poor job of that, too, because I

think my father had more words in the English language

than I knew.

   Underhill:  And for you, you learned English at

school when you were older then?

   Jensen:  Uh-huh, I did not, for health reasons, and

because I had to take care of the livestock, I didn't

start school until I was nine years old.  But yes,

English I had to learn at school.

   Underhill:  How did the trade work?  Your family

would travel to the trading post, or your mother and

your family?  Did you have a wagon, or how did you get

there?

   Jensen:  I just remember going to the trading post

after my father had a vehicle.  Of course we would go

in the vehicle.  But before we had the vehicle, I just

remember my mother taking off on a horse.  I guess she

would ride as far as the highway, and then she would

either leave the horse there and catch a ride and go to

the trading post, and then she would ride back on the

horse.

   Underhill:  How did trade work when you were small?

Was there a credit system?  Did you take cash for the

rugs?

   Jensen:  I believe most of the time it was a trade

system.  You would take a rug in and if they say,

"Okay, the rug was twenty dollars," you know, you would

have twenty dollars in credit in buying groceries or

whatever.  I think mostly it was groceries.  And the

same thing with--I remember September would be the time

to sell the lambs and the goats, or the old sheep and

old goats.  And it was the same.  We barely ever got

cash for it--it was more of a trade system.  And then

in the  springtime, of course, we sold the wool.  And

then again in September, also we sold cattle.

   Underhill:  And how did you get the livestock to the

trading post?

   Jensen:  The livestock buyers would come around to

each of the--I guess each community.  They had a corral

and everyone would just take their livestock, drive

their livestock to the corral, and the buyers would

come in and take them.  And then as years went by, they

didn't do that, so sometimes you would have a buyer in

Kayenta, and you just have to find someone with a

vehicle and take them there for you.

   Underhill:  What did your mother like to buy just

for herself?  Was she able ever to get herself just a

small something?

   Jensen:  My mother didn't really enjoy that type of

luxury until, I guess, after my father had passed away.

Before that, it would be just mainly shoes and

clothing, material and that type of thing.  But if you

saw my mother today, you'd be surprised.  She has a ton

of jewelry on her.  (chuckles)  And I believe my father

was very frugal, and he didn't allow all that.  But

like I said, if you saw my mother today, she buys

whatever she feels like, and it shows on her.  (laughs)

   Underhill:  Good for her!  (laughs)  Did your family

ever pawn any items with the trader when you were

growing up?

   Jensen:  I don't remember doing that myself, but my

mother did quite a bit of that--especially when you're

in between--well, if she's in between a rug or selling

the wool or something.  She would have to pawn

something.  I remember also at Tsaya Trading Post,

looking into the vault, and all the strands and strands

of turquoise necklaces and belts and bracelets.

   Underhill:  What did the people in your family or

your clan think of the traders as you were growing up?

   Jensen:  I can only speak for my family, because we

were kind of very isolated.  We didn't socialize with

the rest of my family from Oljato or El Capitan.  They

seemed to get along very well.  They respected the

traders.

   Underhill:  What differences, if any, did you

observe between traders and maybe medical personnel, or

your schoolteachers, other Anglos who were coming to

the Reservation?  Were there differences?

   Jensen:  I think so.  Like I said, with the trader,

I always saw him smiling, laughing, or having a good

time.  With the teachers, they were always on our case

for talking Navajo or something.  And then for a nurse

or a doctor, I just would rather never go visit them,

because that was a bad experience.  You only got to see

them when you were sick.

   Underhill:  What about missionaries?  Were you

exposed to missionaries when you were young?

   Jensen:  Very much so.  My mother and my father I

guess left their traditional way of life and adopted

the Christian way of life, which I think to this day

wasn't very good for me, because I'm just now learning

my traditions.  At first when I was growing up I

thought it was good for me, because we went to the

Bible camps and we had fun.  But then it was like

boarding school, it took me away from my home to be

living somewhere else for a week at a time.  And they

were all very strict.  We had certain rules to live by,

and it was very strict.  We had to live by those rules,

we didn't have too much freedom.

   Underhill:  What do you think that Anglo people who

come to the Reservation, or even those in the border

towns, should understand about the Navajo way of life,

that maybe caused differences between people?

   Jensen:  I think that everyone just needs to

understand each other, and give each other a little bit

more time.  I know that there's Anglos off the

Reservation that are a little bit more radical than

others.  And then I know a lot of the Navajos are the

same way.  They use like the Long Walk and "the

government did this to me" type of--they use that as an

excuse.  But I think everyone should just look for the

good of the person on the inside first, instead of

passing judgement.

   Underhill:  In terms of trading, the trader came to

make money, and from the Navajo perspective, maybe

there should have been more sharing.  Did you witness

those coming into conflict at all, in terms of

different values, different maybe ways of looking at

the economy?

   Jensen:  When I was maybe ten years or less, I

didn't notice it that much.  But after going through

school and then after high school in the seventies, I

guess, it seemed to me that there was a different set

of traders, they had different values.  It was more

like they were after, I guess, making money.  So the

new traders that came along weren't as understanding,

or not as caring about the people.  They were into, I

guess, just (chuckles) gettin' rich off the Navajo

people.

   Underhill:  And what do you think separates a good

trader from a bad trader?

   Jensen:  Again, it just depends on the person.  You

know, a trader that is very well concerned about the

people, you know, he will go out of his way to do

things for them.  Whereas, a trader that is just there

for the monetary gains, I think that he's rude to

people and he doesn't spend too much time with them,

and he doesn't engage in community activities.

   Underhill:  What did people expect the trader to

provide, besides just a place to get necessary goods?

Were there other things that the trader was expected to

do for people?

   Jensen:  I think in the old days the trader was

expected to be everything to the community.  They could

be a doctor, or they could be a lawyer, or they could

correspond for people.  Of course, you know, a lot of

people didn't know how to read or write, so if they had

students off somewhere else, you know, they would read

the letters for them.  A lot of the traditional people

don't like to have anything to do with someone that is

deceased, so a lot of the traders did burials, I think.

And then a lot of the traders at that time were like

loan officers--they were there to provide loans to

people.

   Underhill:  How did transportation changes impact

trading?  When people were no longer using horses as

much, started to get cars or trucks, what changes did

that bring?

   Jensen:  I think there is a lot of change.  First of

all, the transportation, the vehicle coming along, it

did away with the need to go to the local trading post,

because a vehicle can take you a hundred miles in an

hour or two hours, and people nowadays go to the

borders towns--say, Flagstaff and Farmington or Gallup--

to do their shopping.  So the little trading post that

sits in the remote areas, they're just more or less the

community store, they're not needed as much.

   Underhill:  How did you come to be here at Oljato as

the owner of the Oljato Trading Post?

   Jensen:  (chuckling)  Hm, I keep asking myself that!

(laughter)  I should be so lucky!  No, I worked for the

bank.  I was manager of the bank in Kayenta for several

years, and for some reason I always kind of--maybe it

had something to do with my upbringing and going to a

trading post, and how romantic I thought it was, you

know, to have a trading post in some remote area, with

a potbelly stove, and with a blue coffee pot, and just

having people come in and visiting and having a cup of

coffee.  I always kind of--that was my dream.  And so

back in 1991, November of '91, Winona [phonetic

spelling], who is the daughter of Virginia and Ed

Smith, contacted me and asked me if I would be

interested in operating Oljato Trading Post.  And

before I really thought about it, I said, "Sure!" you

know.  (laughter)  "That sounds like I'd be

interested."  So within a week, they had a chapter

meeting here at the Oljato Chapter House, and I had to

go before the chapter and do my spiel on how I want to

be a trader and all that.  Before I realized it, I had

a trading post to operate, because they didn't want the

trading post to close down.  I actually didn't have the

lease yet, but they didn't want the trading post to

close down, so lo and behold (laughs) I was here.

   Underhill:  How does leasing work now?  What steps

did you have to go through to get a lease?

   Jensen:  Well, the first important thing, I guess,

is going before the chapter house, having a resolution

drawn up, and then of course you have to get the

majority vote of the people.  Then it goes from there

to Window Rock through the long, long paperwork

process.  Well, believe it or not, I still don't have a

lease yet!  (laughter)  I've been operating this

trading post going almost on eight years now, and I

still don't have a lease from the tribe.

   Underhill:  Pretty amazing.  What would a lease

involve, generally?  What would that give you,

(laughing) other than peace of mind after eight years?

   Jensen:  The lease is just a piece of paper that

says you have so many years.  I believe on mine they

said that they were going to give me twenty-five years

to operate the trading post.  Of course there are

certain stipulations, you know.  You have to have

insurance, you have to have a sanitation permit, and

all this good stuff.  But that's one part of the lease

process, you know, that I really don't understand,

because even though I didn't build this trading post,

if I was a new tenant, and if I were to build a trading

post, when I leave at the end of my lease, I leave the

building and I walk out.  So in a lot of ways I don't

think it's very good.

   Underhill:  And do you pay a percentage of your

profit to the tribe?

   Jensen:  Yes, you pay royalties to the tribe.

   Underhill:  So who are your customers now since

1991?

   Jensen:  When I started, I was really kinda doin' a

booming business because I offered credit, which when I

went before the chapter house, the local people,

especially the most traditional people, they wanted me

to offer credit, so this is what I did.  And if I knew

what I know now (chuckles), I know I wouldn't have done

that.  But we had a booming business here as far as

trade and credit.  I did very well, and it was mostly

the local community or the people that call Oljato

their home.  And maybe two years, three years down the

line, people would start drifting off and not come back

and pay their credit.  So in the end, it hurt me.

   Underhill:  Was their credit based on trade goods

like a rug?  Or was it based on pawn?  Or both?

   Jensen:  No, it was just their signature or their

word.  Some of them would still get--you know, if they

had Social Security coming in, they would have their

Social Security checks come here, so they had to come

here to cash their checks and pay off their credit.

But little by little, they started drifting off.  You

know, they had other addresses.  That was a lot of

learning on my part there.  I did trust a lot of

people, I guess.  (laughter)

   Underhill:  Do you still offer credit?

   Jensen:  I offer credit, but to very--I mean, it

wouldn't even go past maybe--less than fifteen.  And I

have to set a limit.  It has to be on a monthly basis.

   Underhill:  What other services do you offer as a

trader to people?

   Jensen:  That is just here and then maybe a little

bit of being a communication center.  But that's about

it.  The role of the old trader I think is long gone.

And aside from being here as a trader--I mean, I have

to do something else other than the trading post.

Otherwise, I'd probably be starving to death.  No--

(laughs)  I do horseback rides, wagon rides, to

supplement the trading post business.  And we've been

working on getting…  I mean, Oljato, I guess, has

always been on the map, but not too many people know

where it is, because it's at the end of the road, this

is it.  So we've had signs put out on the highway to

mark where Oljato Trading Post is, and we've been

trying to promote it.  So we're gettin' a little bit

more of the tourist traffic, and basically, I think

that's what it's gonna take to keep this goin', is

tourist money, not local--not local money.

   Underhill:  Are you still buying rugs?

   Jensen:  Yes, I am.

   Underhill:  Are you selling those wholesale to other

dealers, too?  Some in the store?

   Jensen:  No, mainly retail to the tourists.  And I

try to buy everything that's locally made, like the

pottery and the baskets.  I don't go to Gallup to trade

for any of their goods there.  I try to buy everything

local, because someone has to buy the local stuff.

   Underhill:  Do you take pawn?

   Jensen:  No.  I don't think that's legal on the

Navajo Reservation.

   Underhill:  It's so complex.  (laughs)

   Jensen:  Yeah.  They should do that, otherwise maybe

I'll be doing a booming business again.  (laughs)  I'll

go find Elijah and trade all my goods to him!

(laughter)

   Underhill:  We talked a little about old traders and

new traders.  Can you tell us more about that?  What

old traders were like, and then the new trade.

   Jensen:  Again, referring back to what I have

memories of as a child, the trader always was nice and

friendly and willing to help, no matter what it seemed

to be.  In the seventies, the traders that I kind of, I

guess, witnessed, were not as friendly, they were rude

to people.  It seemed like maybe even the Navajo people

changed for some reason.  I don't know, I don't know

what it was, but there was some hostility that I could

feel.  I don't know [if family were?] a little bit

better then?  (laughs)  So I don't know, I can't really

say what it was.  For instance, again, Tsaya Trading

Post, I went there--I think this is one of the times

that my mother had a chance to buy a turquoise

necklace, and she went in and bought the turquoise.  I

mean, you could just tell that it wasn't real

turquoise, it was a fake type of item.  And she loved

it, so she bought it.  And we took it home and we were

looking at it, and we were trying to crack it open with

our teeth.  Finally, we took a match…  For some

reason, I took a match and stuck the match to the

necklace, and it just caught on fire.  And so that

wasn't very…  They told us it was genuine turquoise.

So we took it back, and they didn't want to refund her

the money.  That was, I guess, the difference, you

know, of honest traders and maybe not so honest.

   Underhill:  Did that new breed of traders in the

seventies make any attempt to speak Navajo or learn

about Navajo culture?

   Jensen:  I don't think so.  I didn't see too many

that were learning Navajo.  Of course, there's others

that have.  I can't speak for everyone, but I think

there's others that do make an attempt to learn the

local traditions or go to the local ceremonies or help

out, donate to the local ceremonies.  And then again,

that's from the Navajo part, too.  Maybe they had a lot

to do with it, because they just kind of expect you to

donate, just because you're here as a trader.  I know

that has happened to me before, too--especially as a

Navajo, I think.  Like from here, there's a lot of the

T��han� people, which are like my aunts and cousins,

and anytime that there is a ceremony, they expect me to

donate.

   Underhill:  Along those lines, what other things

have you learned in this businesses as a trader in the

last seven years?

   Jensen:  Not to trust everyone, I guess.  When I

came along, I wanted to be like everyone's best friend,

and try to help everyone--loaning money or loaning this

and that, you know.  And after a while, you get to know

some that you shouldn't trust very much.  You have to

be a little bit mean, and you have to say no to certain

things, because once you loan a person some money, the

word will go around and they'll all start coming and

asking for money or to borrow a vehicle or to borrow a

horse.  It just gets out of control, so you just have

to really watch what you do.

     Another thing is just that the grandmothers and

the grandfathers, the grassroots people, this is the

last of 'em, unless I go and put on traditional attire

and be like the grandmas, this is the last of 'em.  I

think that's why I consider myself lucky to be amongst

them, because once they're gone, that's it.  And it's

so sad, maybe to see a grandmother out there that maybe

their grandkids are being not very nice to them, or

being rude to them.  It makes you want to cry.  And

sometimes you have some older men--this is in their

seventies, you know, their late seventies--they come in

the trading post and they exchange jokes.  You know how

they grab each other.  I just feel like crying, because

you don't see that anymore.  (laughs)  I think I

learned to value that, that these people are the last

of it and you won't see any more.  And I think this is

the only place here, too, that you will see Grandpa or

Grandma riding a horse and hitching their horse

outside, or maybe chasing their sheep across there.

You don't see that very much anywhere else.  It's an

era that is fast going, and I'm just glad to be a part

of it, I guess--a very small part of it.

   Underhill:  Why do you think those changes are

happening, where young people are not as interested in

traditions, and maybe not being respectful of their

elders the way [previous (Tr.)] generations have been?

   Jensen:  I think a lot of it just has to do with the

previous generation:  they're not teaching it and

they're not enforcing it upon the new generation.  With

the grandmas and grandpas, they had a hard life and

they had to do things every day--they had to get up

early and they had to go tend to their livestock.  And

nowadays you don't see the kids doing that, they don't

have responsibilities.  They go to school, of course,

and they come back and watch TV.  There's a lot of

loose time on their part, I guess.  And that's why I

think they don't learn to be respectful.  There's just

really nothing for them to do.

   Underhill:  What are you most proud of in your life?

   Jensen:  Being a horsewoman, I guess.  I love my

horses, and just the adventures that I go on.  I have

my fun rides at the end of each season, and we've

ridden horses from here to Navajo Mountain.  A lot of

other outfitters have talked about riding to Navajo

Mountain, and I was the only lady, and I did it first!

(laughs)  And just my horsemanship, I guess.  I love

horses, and so…  That, and a lot of the people that

do horseback rides in Monument Valley didn't really

care for their animals.  You know, they would abuse

them, and they would have saddle sores and stuff.  I

would try to teach them or talk to them and say, "Okay,

if you take care of your horse, they'll take care of

you."  And that's what I was taught by my grandparents.

Even if you have a skinny little sheep, you take care

of it, and in return, it'll take care of you, because

it'll give you more little babies that you're gonna

have for food or something.  So you have to take care

of these animals, they have feelings, they're like

humans, too.  I think that's what my accomplishments

[have been (Tr.)] is that those were my father's

teachings, and I think it pays off.

   Underhill:  Is there anything about your experience

in the last seven years, or even your life, that you

would change if you could?

   Jensen:  Not really.  I'm at an age…  I think

I've gone through with "keeping up with the Joneses"

and looking for materialistic things and working for

that.  But now I think maybe by being out here where

it's so remote and the life is just very easy, slow,

and I think it has made me realize the traditions and

the people, and I'm trying to learn more about that.

If I had a busy life schedule, I wouldn't have the time

to do it.  And just to enjoy the scenery and the land

that we have.  I'm more settled now, and I don't have

to prove myself to anyone.  I guess that's it, so I

wouldn't change, I don't think so, I'm happy.  I don't

have much, but I'm happy.  (laughs)

   Underhill:  What is your hope for Oljato Trading

Post?

   Jensen:  I think my hope for Oljato Trading Post

would be to keep it as a historic landmark, and then

maybe have more visitors that we can share this with,

so that they realize what life was about, even though a

hundred years is such a short time, as opposed to maybe

in Italy where their traditions and their history go a

thousand years, but they all come here too, they're

interested in ours.  So I think I would just like to

put Oljato on the map and share that.

   Underhill:  Is there anything else that you would

like to add about trading, or that we should know?

   Jensen:  Hm.  (laughs)  No.

   Underhill:  It's the Big Question.  (laughs)

   Jensen:  Yeah, it's the Big Question.  (laughter)

Um, I think you just have to have a lot of patience,

and I think that you can't be greedy for materialistic

goods.  It's just that you have to…  I really don't

know how to say that.  I'm lost for words now.  It's

just an inner feeling that I have that you get, I

guess, from being out here.  I feel at peace, I guess,

I don't know.  I think it, but I don't really know how

to put it into words.

   Underhill:  And if you want to say it in Navajo,

that's fine, too.

   Jensen:  Oh, no.  (laughter)  That's another thing,

when I first came here, I used to have a hard time

speaking the Navajo language.  And now I'm almost

fluent.  (laughs)  And you do learn a lot from the

people, there too, language-wise.

   Underhill:  Was it because you had been doing other

things?

   Jensen:  Well, because I was working at the bank,

and then, you know, a lot of that is just in the

English language.  And when you don't use a language,

you tend to forget certain things.  Just like I took

Spanish in high school--two, three years of it--and I

don't know any [now (Tr.)].  I couldn't get by in

Mexico.  (laughter)  So it's like that, too.  Another

thing that I regret.  Well, my only regrets, I guess,

is that I wasn't brought up traditionally to know the

traditional medicinal stuff, and I didn't teach my

children the Navajo [language]--I mean, English was

their first language.  And my kids are hungry for that

knowledge.  And my son and my daughter as of now cannot

communicate with their grandmother.  And that's sad,

and that's the only regret I have in life, I guess.

   Underhill:  I'd like to thank you very much for

talking to us, and I'm sure we'll meet again and be in

contact on photos and things.  And this will become

part of the project of NAU and we very much value your

memories and your thoughts on contemporary trading and

how it's changed and where it may be headed.  Thank

you.

   Jensen:  Thank you, and I hope everything works out

for you.

   Underhill:  I hope it wasn't too painful.

(laughter)

   Jensen:  No, just made me think of a lot of stuff

that I don't even really think of.  (laughter)

   Steiger:  Yeah, that was very nice.

   Underhill:  Yeah, I like that.

   Jensen:  Yeah, that'd be really interesting,

especially if it's on video or something.

   Underhill:  Would you like a video copy, do you have

a VCR?

   Jensen:  Sure, yes.

   Underhill:  I will make a note.  (tape turned off

and on)  We have to add a great story, so we're back

with Evelyn.  She just told us about her grandparents,

so I'll let you tell us again.

   Jensen:  Yes, my grandmother lives by El Capitan.

She has a house right on the side of the road.  She

would set up her loom out by the shed house, and she

would be weaving, and the tourists would stop and take

her photos.  Instead of taking a dollar or two dollars

for the trade, she would ask for a pack of Salem

cigarettes, and I always remember a pack of Salem

cigarettes sittin' beside her.  Every once in a while,

she would take a break and she'd be puffing away.

(laughs)  My grandfather was the same way, he would

always have a cigarette.  But my grandfather was about

six-three, six-four.  He was a very tall, handsome man,

and we would call him "the Navajo John Wayne," because

he was very tall and he was in some movies like

Cheyenne Autumn and some of the John Ford movies.  He

was a handsome man also.

   Underhill:  Excellent.  I've heard stories, probably

from a Tony Hillerman novel, about the Navajo man who

would act in movies and would speak Navajo, and if you

could read lips, they were saying all kinds of funny

things.  (chuckles)  Did he ever talk about that?

   Jensen:  No, he'd have some jokes, like in some of

these John Wayne movies they would say, "Okay…"

They'd have the stunt men running horses, and they say,

"Okay, whoever falls off, they get an extra fifty

dollars" or whatever.  And this is just like a joke to

them that all of them would start riding across the

plains and then every one of them would fall off, just

because they want that fifty dollars!  (laughter)  And

of course there is a lot of card games, too.  They

would get together and play cards--I guess "Navajo

Ten."  So I think back in those times it was illegal

for them to do that, so they have to be hiding out in

an arroyo or behind a hill somewhere, and play games

while they're waitin' for their next shoot.

   Underhill:  And why was it illegal?

   Jensen:  Gambling, I guess, is still (laughing)

trying to pass today.  So you know the rest of the

story.

   Underhill:  Were there any other humorous incidents

that you recall involving tourists?  You probably have

some today with people coming in and asking very

interesting questions.

   Jensen:  Yes!  The funniest thing that I've seen--in

fact, just a couple of months ago--she wasn't a

tourist, though.  I think she was working with the

schools.  And I don't know, she was just coming in from

somewhere, but she was all dressed up in a clown

outfit.  You know, she had the funny face painted on,

the red curly hair, and she pulls up right to the front

of the store and she comes in and she wanted to know

where Mexican Hat Elementary School was.  (laughter)

And boy, was she way off!  But you know, you don't see

too many things--you know, a clown gettin' out of a car

and coming in.

   Another thing that I remember is Peabody Coal is

mining up on Black Mesa, and about the early seventies

or maybe late sixties they started coming around there

to survey the area.  My brother and I would be on a

donkey, like right close to the road, and here they

would be coming up the road, and we were embarrassed to

be on the donkey, so we would bail off and run into the

closest wash or arroyo.  (laughter)  But they would

stop and they�d be looking and calling for us, and we'd

be hiding, but the donkey would be standing there.

(laughter)  I think that's probably one of my other

experiences with the Anglo people, is the people out

there that were surveying the area.  But I thought of

them as being nice, because they always gave us treats

also.

   Underhill:  Thank you--again!  (laughs)  And if you

tell another story, we're gonna turn it back on!

(laughs)

   Jensen:  We'll stay here all night!  You'd better

have lots of time!  (laughter)  (tape turned off and

on)

   Underhill:  Do you want me to write down names?

   Steiger:  Okay, that'll work.

   Underhill:  Your grandmother's name?

   Jensen:  My grandmother's name is Lizzie Holliday

Parrish, and my grandfather's name is Frank Parrish

[both phonetic spellings].  His Navajo name is T�� �z�

doo �ad��h�n� da, which means "he doesn't eat goat

meat."

   Underhill:  And was that true?

   Jensen:  It must be, because I don't like goat meat

either!  (laughter)

   Underhill:  And that's Billie Holliday up above?

   Jensen:  Billie Holliday there, and then Taleeya

Aria [phonetic spelling].  That is Tridy Holliday

[phonetic spelling].  He was a local medicine man.

They say that he could pray for rain.  (long pause)

___________  (laughter)

   Underhill:  Actually, do you need any help?  I�m not

much help.

   Steiger:  Okay, so this is Billie Holliday that

we're looking at?

   Underhill:  That's Charlie.

   [END OF INTERVIEW]