JOE DANOFF INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE A]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

We're in Gallup, New Mexico, today, visiting with

Mr. Joe Danoff about his years in the Indian trading

business.  Also present in the room is Lew Steiger.

This interview is part of the United Indian Trader

Association Oral History Project.

   

   Cole:  Joe, if we could just start from the very

beginning and you can tell us when and where you were

born.

   

   Danoff:  Where I was born?  Well, actually, I was

born in Los Angeles, California, but only as a

convenience to my mother.  I was born out there and

brought back to Gallup.  So I always like to sort of

say that I was born and raised in Gallup, because this

is where I grew up.  From then on, I went to college,

went in the Air Force, twice:  was in World War II and

Korea, and then got out.  I came back to Gallup for a

while, went down to Phoenix.  Down in Phoenix is where

I first got into sort of the Indian market, 'cause my

father-in-law and his brother-in-law had an Indian

store down there�a fellah by the name of Clarence

Wheeler.  You may have heard his name mentioned.  And

so they asked me if I'd come down there and learn to

buy rugs, from Clarence.  We went out on the

reservation, all over the reservation, and bought rugs.

It was very interesting, and he taught me a lot about

rugs, and then I started doin' it on my own, traveled

the reservation for, I think, about two years.  And

then I was recalled during the Korean War and went back

in active duty.

   When I got out of the service in late 1945, I went

back to Phoenix and went to work for Air Research, as

an engineer.  My brother-in-law asked me if I'd like to

go up on the reservation to run one of the stores.

   

   Cole:  And who was your brother-in-law?

   

   Danoff:  Art Lee.  So then I decided, well, that

ought to be interesting.  So I moved up to Ganado.

Ganado had already been in two bankruptcies.  Hugh Lee,

Ruth's brother, went bankrupt there, and he sold out to

J. B. Tanner, which I don't know if you've interviewed

him (Cole:  Yeah.) and he bellied-up there.  So my

father-in-law had taken the store back over, and that's

when I came in to manage that store.

   Ganado was a good store, except it was in a deal

where we had competition very close to us, which a lot

of the other stores didn't have.  We had Roundtop

Trading Post just up the road, and then we had…

Let's see, who else was right there?  Well, there was

Hubbells, of course, and Hubbells had the notoriety and

the fame.  But of course that didn't count too much

with the Indian.

   I don't know where the nomenclature "Indian trader"

came in, because I never traded an Indian as long as I

was out there!  (laughter)  So anyway, I took over

Ganado in 1957, and at that time, the traders were

still dealing pretty much in wool, sheep, and of course

credit.  Credit was the big thing on the reservation.

That was the only way you could almost do business with

the Navajos on the reservation, was credit.  So when I

got there, we didn't have the capital or anything that

we could really get into the commodities, but we did

have a deal�every year we had a deal with either Gross-

Kelly or the Gallup Mercantile in Gallup which would

advance us capital to buy wool and to buy sheep.  And

we did that.  For several years I bought quite a few

sheep, bought wool.  I had two stock accounts, or two

wool stock accounts, Navajo people.  But that was kind

of a risky business, especially after the pickup truck

came into being on the reservation.  The Navajos were

takin' a lot of their wool right into Gallup and

selling it.  My customers, they take two bags into

Gallup and bring me one bag.  And there was always a

balance left on their account, because they just

weren't bringin' me all their wool.  And the lambs, I

didn't deal directly with lambs.  Either someone in

Gallup backed us, and we bought lambs for them.  So

that wasn't really a part of our business.  It was a

help to our business, but it wasn't part of our

business.

   When I went up to Ganado, I went up to run a

business.  I didn't know what kind of business we were

gonna have, or what we were gonna do, but it was such a

diversified store�I mean, you had everything.  I got

the idea that we ought to open it up as much as

possible, because I got tired of runnin' around the

counters all the time and grabbing things.  So me and

Camille Garcia from Chinle, I think he and I were the

only ones that finally opened up especially our grocery

side of the stores.  We put gondolas in, and we had our

groceries and made it sort of a self-service deal.

Everybody kind of thought, "Boy, these guys are gonna

have troubles."  You know, they're gonna steal us blind

or something.  But it really worked out pretty good.  I

put in a frozen food case, and I had all these things

out, sort of like a regular grocery store had.  Our dry

goods, of course, was still behind the counter, and

some of our smaller items.  But I tried to modernize as

much as I could.  And of course our clientele, we

depended on state welfare, ADC, there was some

government, that is, tribal checks that came in,

subsistence checks, and Social Security started coming

onto the reservation pretty good.  We had people come

out there at least once a month to interview for Social

Security.  And all these things was part of our

business, and I encouraged it, because that was all we

had.  The other part was that we gave credit to those

people who had something to pay for it with.  And

usually it was either the ADC check, or the subsistence

they got from the Navajo Tribe, or their Social

Security.  Most of those checks would come to our

store.  In fact, I would say 95 percent of 'em did.  So

we sort of had control of the credit.  It was difficult

to keep 'em within the limits of the checks, and very

seldom ever did.  Sooner or later, the trader was gonna

lose on that account.  We knew it, I knew it, they all

knew it.  We had trouble in people transferring.  They

could go and they could change the address on their

check to another trading post or anyplace they wanted,

and you're sittin' there givin' 'em credit, and you

don't know it until the checks come in.  And so you're

usually out for that.  So it was kind of a risky

business.

   I didn't get much into the artifacts.  I bought

rugs.  The only jewelry I ever worked with was pawn.

We did take pawn, and even that I kept to a minimum,

because I used to go out to these trading posts, and my

God, they had fortunes in their vaults of pawn that

they've held for years and years.  Well, the old

traders did that, they held that pawn forever.  And I

was too much of a business person to say, "Hey, this is

not makin' me any money."  So I wanted that pawn to

turn over, and I would push that pretty hard.  And when

it came due and they didn't redeem it, it went out in

the showcase and I sold it.  I didn't keep any

artifacts.  We had a few rugs, but they were all stolen

here about ten years ago, in this house.  We were

robbed, but I wasn't much on the artifacts, and I

wasn't much on carrying items for tourists.  It was

strictly a business with the Navajos, that's all we

did.  They were good people to deal with.  I'd have

trouble with some of 'em, but most of 'em were good.

They could wear you down with stories and excuses and

they'd always have a new one.  You'd think you knew 'em

all, but they'd come up with a new one.  You know, it

was sort of a game.  In fact, I had a lady, squaw, that

used to come in the store and it was a game with her to

see if she could steal or if I would catch her�and she

did.  Sometimes she'd get away with it, and sometimes

I'd catch her, but it was sort of a game, you know.

She didn't feel bad about getting caught, it was just

one of those things.  So these things went on, and it

was very interesting.  It was an interesting business.

You dealt with all these people and you got to know 'em

personally, and you wanted to help 'em.

   The only troubles that I ever had on the reservation

was with either the Health Service or not so much the

BIA, but the Navajo Tribe.  The Health Service would

come out, and they would want us to do certain things,

which was fine.  But being that we're out in the

boondocks more or less, it was hard to comply with

these deals that they had.  Well, about the time you

had one of 'em educated to the fact that, hey, things

aren't just as easy as you think they are, he would

transfer out and here comes a new one, so we had to go

all through this rigmarole again.  But Ganado was

fortunate in that we had the mission across the road,

we had water from them, we had electricity from them,

and our sewer system drained into their system.  So we

were fortunate.

   After I'd been in Ganado, I forget, maybe four or

five years, I was working at that time for Mr. A. H.

Lee, and then I offered him a deal to buy the store.

So after about three or four years, I think, I started

buying the store.  When I bought it, I had to assume

his lease�the tribe didn't give me a new lease.  I

think there was only about fifteen years on his lease.

So I didn't think any problems would occur, renewing

the lease.  They'd been renewed for years, so I wasn't

too concerned about it.  But it so happened that I

should have been, because when my lease was up, the

chapter, first of all, was reluctant to even renew the

lease.  Secondly, when I first was dealing with the

bureaucracy at Window Rock, it was with the BIA, and

then it kind of swung over to where everything was

through the Navajo Tribe, and that's when things

started gettin' difficult.  So I had trouble gettin' a

renewal on my lease.  In fact, they were gonna refuse

it, but I kept fightin' it, and didn't think they could

carry it out.

   Anyway, gettin' back to Ganado.  After I had gotten

there, the post office was on the mission grounds, and

the mission didn't want the post office there anymore,

so the postal service came and was tryin' to get

someone to build a post office.  Well, nobody wanted to

build it.  I finally consented to build a post office

right there by our store in Ganado.  So I built the

post office.  I had sort of a miniature trailer park

there.  We had two houses, besides the house we lived

in, which was right next to the store.  So we did

develop the area quite a bit.  So anyway, I stayed out

there, we were out there for ten years, and our kids

were at the age where we decided we wanted them to be

in school in town, so we decided we were gonna move to

Gallup, which we did in 1967, I think.  And then when

we moved to Gallup, I just commuted back and forth.  I

had a manager out there.

   In the meantime, in the interim period, I had bought

two more stores on the reservation.  I had Low Mountain

and Smoke Signal.  Those were two stores that my

brother-in-law, my father-in-law, and I bought.

   

   Cole:  And where were they at?

   

   Danoff:  Smoke Signal was on the highway going from

Chinle over to Pi�on, only you turned off the highway,

and it was about eight miles back in the area.  There

was a flat mountain out there, which was Low Mountain.

Smoke Signal was on the east side of the mountain, and

Low Mountain was down at the other end.  We had bought

the Low Mountain store from a Navajo who had started a

store there.  He never did build a building, he was

working out of the chapter house there, and he just

couldn't make it, so we bought his lease, and we built

the store at Low Mountain.  And then at Smoke Signal we

built that store as well.  So we had managers out

there, and I was sort of the general manager lookin'

after those two stores as well as Ganado.

   So when I left Ganado after ten years, I had a

manager out there, a fellah that had been working for

me for some time, and I put him in charge.  Then he

decided to leave, so I asked my daughter, Kathy, and

her husband if they'd like to take it over, and they

agreed to come out there and run the store.  And that

was the time we started in on our lease.  Now, I

complied with all the regulations in the lease; a year

before the lease was to come due I'd already made

another pre-application; but we had a little

political�I say political�the Gormans were very strong

in Ganado.  Mrs. Gorman was quite the lady.  Her son

had bought Roundtop, which was up the road from where

we were.  She was dead against us gettin' a new lease.

And I had gone to the chapter meetings and attended

their meetings and we discussed it, and finally it was

agreed that we would get a ten-year lease extension.

But for some reason or other, Window Rock didn't act on

it.

   And the funny part of it was, I had leased the post

office to the postal department, and they were paying

me every month for the rental on that post office.  And

all of a sudden, the rent quit comin'.  Well, I don't

know what happened or how it came about, and I never

did get a notice from the postal department or

anything, but they started sending my rental money to

the tribe, just out of the clear blue sky.  Well, I

should have gone to court immediately about it, but I

didn't.  Well, unfortunately, during this negotiation

and everything, Ganado caught fire and burned down.  So

that sort of terminated everything.  So they elected me

to clean up the area where it had burned, they didn't

reimburse me for any of the improvements around the

post office or anything else.  I just walked off and

left it all.  So that was my deal on the reservation.

   

   Cole:  Was there any kind of insurance or anything?

(pause to adjust equipment)

   

   Danoff:  Let me backtrack just a little bit.

Another thing that I think I'm gonna take credit for,

and I know that it was me:  Our source of merchandise

was either from Gross-Kelly or the Gallup Mercantile

right here in Gallup.  We got our produce from A & J

Produce Company, and things like that.  I was really

concerned about the prices we were havin' to pay for

the commodities we were buying.  So I took it on myself

to make contact with Associated Grocers, and they

talked favorable about it, but they said, "You know,

come out there on that reservation, a lot of traveling

for just one person."  So I personally went out and

tried to get clients for them:  Camille Garcia at

Chinle was one that I got; and I got my competition up

the road, Clyde Tease [phonetic spelling] at Roundtop.

I think I got four people that were willing to join

Associated Grocers, and that took a little.  You know,

you had to put up a deposit of so much money.  But boy,

that opened up a big deal for us traders, because we

were getting merchandise at really better prices than

we were having to pay.  So I started this movement, and

it grew.  When it ended up, Associated Grocers from

Phoenix was comin' out on the reservation.  And then

they had Associated Grocers out of Albuquerque�but it

was out of Denver, it was actually Denver's

business�but they came out there.  So I kind of feel

that I had something to do with bringing that on the

reservation.  It got to the point where they were

servicing just a lot of the trading posts out

there�mainly the ones on at least good roads.  They

didn't like to take their big equipment out…  So

that was another thing that I think I started, and I'm

proud of it, and it helped us, helped the traders,

helped the customers, and everybody concerned.

   

   Cole:  So after you left Ganado, then did you

continue to be involved with trading?

   

   Danoff:  Well, yes, only in the sense that I checked

on my own businesses out there.  When I came into here,

to Gallup, I was sort of semi-retired.  But then I'd

always flown, I'd been a pilot for many, many years.

So some friends here in Gallup asked me if I would take

over the airport here, manage the airport.  So I

thought, "Well, okay, I'll do it as a part-time deal."

(chuckles)  [I] took it as a part-time deal, and

finally it ended up twenty-five years later, still at

the airport.  But that's another thing I did.  I'm

proud of it, I made a good airport out of what we had

here in Gallup.  And I've done a lot of flying, I've

flown all over the reservation.  I used to fly patients

in and out of the reservation, and in fact I used to

take some of my customers, or the office for the

welfare, ADC, and things like that, was in St. Johns.

And I used to fly some of my people down there to make

application and things, so that they could get on ADC.

And of course it helped them, but it helped me too,

helped my business, so it worked two ways.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever learn to speak Navajo?

   

   Danoff:  I spoke it fairly good in the store.  Just

to set out there and have a conversation, a little bit,

I could pick up things, but I couldn't do it.  But

anything that had to do with the store and merchandise,

I pretty well knew about that.  I wish I could have

carried on�all of Ruth's family is very fluent in

Navajo.  But they've been out there for twenty, thirty

years, too�they were raised out there.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever have a Navajo nickname?

   

   Danoff:  Ah, let's see, what did they call me?  I

can't remember.  Yeah, I had a Navajo nickname.

(calling to wife)  Ruth?  I don't know where she is.  I

can't remember what it was now.  No (chuckles) I don't

know.  (to wife)  Do you remember what the Navajos used

to call me?

   

   Ruth:  I�m not sure�the Big Mormon Son-in-law.

   

   Danoff:  Something like that.

   

   Ruth:  Big Mormon Son-in-law, probably, but I don't

know how to say "son-in-law."

   

   Danoff:  Yeah, they gave all the traders nicknames,

called 'em different things.

   

   Cole:  What impact did you see all the government

money coming into the Navajos�what impact did that have

on their lifestyle?

   

   Danoff:  Well, the money coming into the reservation

was�other than the government subsidy, the government

which gave the tribe, and the tribe in turn gave it to

the Indian in a subsidized payment�I forget exactly

what they called it�but it was in conjunction with the

welfare program.  At the time we were out there, there

wasn't this housing explosion like there is today out

there and everything.  And, you know, the Navajo in the

hogan really didn't see a lot of this money that was

comin' into the tribe.  It sort of reminded me like

when I was in Korea.  The federal government, our

government, was pouring money into Korea like mad, but

the little guy down in the hut didn't see a thing.  On

the other hand, the Communists, they took a loaf of

bread to that guy in that hut.  So who is he gonna be

for�us or for the Communists?  The Communists, because

he got something.  And that's the way it was out at…

The Navajo Tribe down at Window Rock was gettin' all

these funds in, but it wasn't going out to the little

guy settin' out there.  Even the chapters today are

gettin' fabulous amounts of money.  At the time I was

out there, chapters didn't have anything.  They were

just a little organization that was supposed to be

governing their little community, but they didn't have

any funds to really work with.  But they're gettin' 'em

now.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember who the managers were at the

other trading posts you owned?

   

   Danoff:  Yeah, there was a fellah by the name of

Ernest Wilson out at Low Mountain.  His brother, Bevin

[phonetic spelling] Wilson was at Smoke Signal with us.

They were the two that was with us the longest.  We

sold Low Mountain to a Navajo woman who was living with

an Anglo man.  I don't know whatever happened there,

but that trading post was finally torn down, there's

nothing out there.  At Smoke Signal, I sold it to a

fellah by the name of Wallace Anderson.  Wallace

Anderson used to have the trading post in Many Farms.

I don't know whether that post is still operating or

not.

   

   Cole:  Did you have similar difficulties with your

leases at Smoke Signal and Roundtop?

   

   Danoff:  No, didn't have any problem there, because

it was just a transfer of lease.  There was no problem.

And I don't know whether…  MacDonald was in, and I'm

not sure that I could blame MacDonald for all our

problems.  I think most of my problems came from the

people right in Ganado�mainly Mrs. Gorman.  She was

very outspoken and she was one of the big shots in the

chapter and everything.  She made some pretty good

cases against me, but then I had a lot of friends that

were for me, too.  But I was just having trouble, and I

don't know why, but most of the traders were having

trouble at that time.  And I think I'd have still won

out if the place hadn't of burned down, because I

wasn't gonna move, and whether they were gonna force me

out, I don't know, I don't think so.

   

   Cole:  That was another question.  You mentioned

when it burned down that that was basically tribal

land.  Were you able to carry any kind of insurance on

the goods and stuff like that?

   

   Danoff:  Yeah, I had insurance on everything out

there, and I had difficulty there when the place burned

down, because I was ten years in getting my insurance.

They kept saying that my insurance wasn't in force

because I didn't have the lease.  I kept saying, "Hey,

whether I had a lease or not, you came out there and

insured those buildings and I was in possession of

'em."  So I was in court for ten years.  I lost my butt

on settlement, 'cause they didn't…  For ten years,

the judgement was that I was to be paid off my

insurance, but no interest on the money for that ten

years.  It was a bad deal all the way around.

   

   Cole:  Were you still at Ganado when the whole FTC

hearings on pawn occurred?

   

   Danoff:  Yes.

   

   Cole:  What are your memories of that?

   

   Danoff:  There again, they didn't really get the

stories, you know.  They took a lot of stories from a

lot of Navajos, but they never did really get our side

of the story.  And it all came out bad, because the

people they talked to, were the people that were griped

about something or other.  They really made a bad

impression on the general public, and we weren't guilty

of all those things.  So there again, I and all traders

were perturbed about it, and really, we did hire a law

firm.  Seems like we hired this outfit out of

Farmington to intercede for us, say, "Hey! let's get

our side of the story."  And I can't recall exactly

what came out, but the publicity that was originally

out on it was bad�bad for the traders.  We looked like

a bunch of crooks and bohunks.  Never did come out…

You know, we had some bad traders on the reservation,

sure�you've got some bad merchants in town everywhere.

But generally speaking, the traders were out there for

a purpose�but not only for a purpose�we were advisors,

we looked after their sick when they had to get to a

doctor.  You know, we did all these things that

generally speaking you don't do in a business.  And

people don't realize what was entailed in our

businesses on the reservation.  It wasn't just a

business, it was a way of life.  And like I say, I was

in on the back end of it, really.  But some of these

traders that lived out there for years, my father-in-

law, he even had to bury the dead.  You know, it was

quite an involved deal�it wasn't just cut and dry,

"Here's a can of coffee, and I'll get paid when your

sheep are sheared," or something like that.

   So it was an involved life, it was interesting, but

it was hard work.  And us living right next to the

trading post, our business went on all night long.

We'd get calls, they'd knock on the door, and they'd

need to be given gas because their grandmother died or

something.  You know, it was always something.  And

that was part of your business.  You did it, you

accepted it.

   

   Cole:  When the business was running over those ten

or fifteen years, was it a profitable business?

   

   Danoff:  Absolutely.  I wouldn't have been out

there…  Like I say, I probably didn't�I was a new

guy on the block and I didn't do business like the old

traders did.  I merchandised, I dealt in turnover.  My

profit was in the turnover.  I turned merchandise over

twenty-five times a year.  Well, that's where my profit

came in.  It wasn't high profit here and just set

there, but I kept turning stuff over, and that's the

way I did business out there.  And you bet we made

money, it was a good business.

   

   Steiger:  How come you wanted to make that change

from the bullpen to the…  Was anybody else doin'

that before you guys did it?  What made you want to do

that?

   

   Danoff:  Well, like I say, I got tired of roamin'

around the counters, and thought there was an easier

way to do this thing.  And, you know, there was the

grocery stores in town, they had gondolas out there

with the merchandise on, and I thought, "Well, why

can't we do that?"  And so I didn't know whether it

would work or not, but I was willing to try it.  And I

forget how come Camille Garcia�we either got to talking

about it or something, and he decided he'd try it too.

I even went and bought�I forget whether it was from J.

McCullum or one of the grocery stores here�I bought

five of their little carts to push around those

gondolas.  And it was kinda new to them, too�you know,

the Navajos.  They didn't know what to think about

this, they could just go and pick it up and put it in

the basket.  Most of 'em would just pick up an item and

bring it over to the counter where the cash register

was.  It was sort of an education for them as well, but

it worked out fine, it really did.

   

   Steiger:  Clarence told us a story�I don't know if

that was you guys�about fightin'.  Was he involved with

you guys then?

   

   Danoff:  Who?

   

   Steiger:  Clarence Wheeler.

   

   Danoff:  Are you talkin' about young Clarence, the

one from up in…

   

   Cole:  Young Clarence is who we're talkin' about,

yeah.

   

   Steiger:  That's different, okay.

   

   Danoff:  He was up in Upper Greasewood.

   

   Steiger:  Right, yeah.

   

   Danoff:  His uncle�the Clarence Wheeler that I

worked with was his uncle, and he owned Sunrise

Trading, Greasewood Trading, White Cone out there.  He

had several trading posts here, but they all had

started right at Ganado.  Mr. Lee had come in.  Ruth's

dad was first at Salina Springs, and then he came in, I

think in 1926, I think he built Ganado.  And then

Clarence Wheeler, Lon Wheeler, half of the guys started

working at Ganado before they went out to their own

stores on the reservation.

   

   Cole:  What did your father-in-law think of the

switch over to the self-service grocery?

   

   Danoff:  I don't think he was too…  There again,

Mr. Lee was an old trader, had done business like they

had been doin' for a hundred years, I guess.  He

probably wasn't too receptive about it, but he never

did give me any opinion about it, "Hey, that's the

worst thing in the world."  He never said anything.  I

think he kinda sat back and was gonna watch, and if it

didn't go, he was gonna say, "Ah-ha, see!"  You know,

that kind of a deal.  But no, he didn't object to it or

anything like that.  And as long as I made him money,

he was happy.

   

   Cole:  Were you ever a member of the United Indian

Traders Association?

   

   Danoff:  Yeah.  Oh, yeah, sure was, went to all

their meetings.

   

   Cole:  What were their meetings like?

   

   Danoff:  Well, they were…  There was a lot of

serious things that we discussed at those meetings,

because all traders were having…  And I remember one

thing we were trying to get the traders together, to do

things together.  In other words, I can't recall any

exact thing that we were trying to do, but one of 'em

was that if John Yazzie transferred his check up here

to Roundtop, how about givin' us protection on that?

In other words, they knew that he was gettin' credit at

Ganado or wherever, and let's work together, let us

know that, "Hey, John Yazzie has transferred his check

up to us."  We worked on that, but you know, we could

never get two traders to do anything.  You know, it was

hard.  We all agreed, "Hey, this is a good idea."  But

when it come right down to actually doin' it, it never

happened.  Never could get the traders to really

organize and go with something.

   But like I say, I thought the Association was good,

because we did discuss things that helped me anyway.

And then I think we did some good with the federal

government.  Before my time, however, Ruth's dad and

Ruth's brother made trips to Washington for the Indian

Traders Association.  They did some good, some of the

things they didn't do.  So it was a good organization.

I don't know what has happened to it since I was a

member of it.  I know that we did have stock in

AT&T�should have had a hell of a lot of stock.  And

what happened to that and where it's going…  There's

one thing I heard, and I'm not sure that it's true, but

something about Navajo scholarships or something.  I

don't know, but I don't feel like�if anybody should get

scholarships, it should be the children of the traders,

their grandkids or whatever.  But I think besides that,

if there's these funds�and I don't know who, if the

organization is still intact, but it should go toward

things like you all are doin' here, and to build up a

history of what the trader actually was on the

reservation, because I'm not sure that there's…  The

only one I can think of that's still�and he's not there

anymore, at Borrego Pass�gosh, I've even forgotten his

name.  I think he died finally, he was in an old folks'

home.

   

   Cole:  Was that Smouse? [phonetic spelling]

   

   Danoff:  Smouse, yeah, Don Smouse.  I think Don is

probably, his store is probably one of the oldest

operating trading posts on the reservation, and

operating like it used to be years ago.  You know, the

old trading posts are either closed up or there's now

these Seven Eleven places all over the place.  So it's

really a dying�what do you call it?�business, the

Indian trader.  Well, I don't know about who's up at

Grey Mountain.

   

   Cole:  I'm not sure.  Two Grey Hills is Les Wilson.

Grey Mountain and Two Grey Hills�are those two

different ones.

   

   Danoff:  Two Grey Hills, I mean.

   

   Cole:  Yeah, Les Wilson's up there.  Then there's a

fellah that's done quite a bit with the old Toadlena

Trading Post, but he's turned it more into kind of a

museum thing, trying to maybe bring in the tourist

business more.

   

   Danoff:  But the Foutzes up in the Four Corners

area.  I don't know whether they're…  I'm sure that

they're more or less like little Seven Eleven stores,

if they're still in business out there.  But you know,

there were so many trading posts all over the

reservation, and I kinda wonder just whether how many

of 'em are…  And I haven't seen Lij Blair in several

years, but I understand he closed his place at

Bitahochee�I mean, Dilkon�not Dilkon.

   

   Cole:  Dinnebito?

   

   Danoff:  Dinnebito, yeah.  So that's what's

happening all over the reservation.

   

   Cole:  Were you ever an officer in UITA?

   Danoff:  No.

   

   Cole:  Just a member.  And what about the social

aspect of the organization?  Was there much to that,

when you had your annual meetings?

   

   Danoff:  Gosh, I think we did have a banquet or

something like that�I can't remember.  I think it was a

two-day deal, and we had a banquet at night and a dance

or something.  I just can't recall too much about that,

but yeah, there was a social deal, and it was good,

because we got to talk to each trader and socialize

with 'em, and learn about their troubles.

   You know, I didn't know all the traders on the

reservation, but I knew a great many of 'em, and I

thought they were damned nice people.  I never met a

guy that I could say was a real bastard or something.

They were good people, down to earth.  When I was

buying rugs out there, I used to have to stay overnight

with some of 'em, because I'd be out in the middle of

the boondocks and no place to stay.  I had a one-ton

panel truck, and some nights I'd sleep on top of the

rugs in that truck.  And they would welcome you,

because they liked company too, because you'd be out

there in the boondocks and all you see is Navajos all

day long.  So when someone comes and they want to spend

the night, boy, they really enjoy it, because they get

to visit with somebody and talk about what's outside

and things like that.  Some of those people out there,

they lived out there�I don't know whether I could have

done that or not�twenty-five, thirty years, long time.

And even though those Navajos are wonderful people,

they can wear you down.  Boy!  You really got to the

point�and I have to admit it�I got to the point where I

hate to see 'em come through the door (chuckles)

because it was always somethin'�something or other.

They needed this or they needed that, or they needed

money.  It was really something.  But all in all, it

was all right.

   

   Cole:  How many rugs would you buy on your trips?

   

   Danoff:  I don't think I ever had more than twenty

rugs at one time.  And there again, I don't know why I

didn't.  I just wasn't that into it�jewelry or rugs or

anything like that�to really put this aside and say,

"Hey, this is a nice rug, I'm gonna keep it."  If I was

gonna do that, the best time I had to do that was when

I had the Indian store down in Phoenix.  That's when,

you know, I was out there on the reservation and bought

beautiful rugs, saddle blankets.  We had a store in

Phoenix, we had a store that was about thirty feet long

and probably thirty feet wide.  We had the walls, from

the floor to the ceiling, all the way around that, with

saddle blankets, nothing but saddle blankets.  In fact,

we had so many saddle blankets that I took this one-ton

panel truck and went to Texas one time, made every

rodeo I could, opened up the back end, was selling

double saddle blankets for ten dollars, single saddle

blankets for five�and I mean good blankets.  I went to

California the same way.  We just had to get rid of

'em, we had so damned many.  And now, I wish I had

(laughs) just half of 'em!  It'd be worth a fortune.

They're not saddle blankets anymore, they're rugs.  One

I looked at just the other day was $175, and I would

have classed that as a second.  It wasn't a very good

weaved saddle blanket.  The rug business has really

gone…  I can't believe it, the way it's gone, but

that's fine, you know.  There is another thing that one

of these days we aren't even going to see those rugs

anymore.

   

   Cole:  When did you meet Ruth?

   

   Danoff:  I met Ruth right here in Gallup in a

bar�night club.  She came in with her brother, and I

was with some other friends of mine.  They dared me to

go ask her to dance, so I went over there, and I think

it was Hugh�(to wife) wasn't it?  You were with Hugh

and Dorothy?

   

   Ruth:  With Hugh.

   

   Danoff:  So I went over and asked Hugh if I could

dance with his sister, and asked her if she'd…  So

we danced, and she gave me this big line that she was

seventeen or something.

   

   Ruth:  I told you I was eighteen.

   

   Danoff:  Eighteen, yeah.  (chuckles)  So I used to

drive out to Ganado, dating her.  Her dad, he wasn't

too happy about that.  But she told me that she was,

like she said, eighteen.  But I thought something was

funny, every time I'd go out there, either one of her

brothers would follow me into Gallup and follow me back

out!  (laughter)  So that was our courtship.  We

married down there in Florence.  We went to Florence,

Arizona, and got married.  She'd just graduated high

school.

   When we first went to Ganado we had three kids then?

No, we had two.

   

   Ruth:  We had Valerie, too�she was a month old.

   

   Danoff:  Oh, we'd just had Valerie, yeah.  So we had

our four girls up there, and like I say, they went to

school there 'til we finally decided to move into

Gallup.  We thought they would get better schooling

here, but I'm not sure that that's a fact.  I think

their schools out there were pretty good.

   

   Cole:  And how did your girls like growing up in

Ganado?

   

   Danoff:  Well, I kinda think they enjoyed it.  They

had horses and they…  I don't know, they seemed to

enjoy it when they were out there.  I can't really say.

   

   Cole:  Any questions, Lew?

   

   Steiger:  What are your favorite memories of flyin'

around out there?  It's obvious you love to fly, and it

sounds like you were maybe one of the first, or maybe

the first, trader that started flyin'.

   

   Danoff:  Well, yeah.  I used the airplane, too, when

I had the other stores out there.  I didn't have a

strip at Smoke Signal, but there was a strip at Low

Mountain�just a dirt strip.  And so I would use the

road, the dirt road that goes in there to Low Mountain,

landed on it, to fly in there.  And it was a very

interesting�it's sort of like bush piloting, when I was

flying on the reservation.  I used to come in and I

flew for the operator here at Gallup.  He had Bonanzas,

and we used to take those Bonanzas into some pretty bad

strips out there, but never had any problem.  But at

that time, there wasn't strips all over the

reservation.  We either used roads to land on, or we

didn't land, period.

   The reservation is a very picturesque area.  In

fact, I take people, even today, I'll take off and go

from Gallup to Canyon de Chelly, show 'em the canyon,

and then we'll head up toward Monument Valley.  That's,

you know, you really get a panoramic view from the air

of the valley.  And then I go up to the river and fly

the river clear down to Page�beautiful flight, the

lake.  And then I go down and fly the south rim of the

Grand Canyon to the airport there, and land there.  But

that, to me, is one of the prettiest flights you can

make:  pretty country, picturesque, people go wild with

their cameras.  My God, they're shootin' pictures as

fast as they can.  I take friends and things like that

out on those trips.  We go around.

   The funniest thing, I flew with a friend of mine

down here.  He was a distributor for Shell Oil Company,

and he wanted me to fly some of the executives…  I

don't know whether I'd better tell this story on camera

or not!  (chuckles)

   

   Steiger:  Actually, I've got to change tape, too.

   

   [END SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

   

   Danoff:  … but that never came about.  I had some

pretty big ideas that I wanted to do out there, but you

know, you could never get the tribe or anybody to

cooperate with you on any stuff.  At one time, I was

even talkin' to some people about putting…  You

know, I always thought the Navajo woman, especially,

was good at sewing and things like that.  And I

thought, "Well, why couldn't Levi Strauss or someone

like that come out there and set up a plant?"  You

know?  And I was talkin' to people about that very

thing.  But the tribe, or the Navajo people, were

always for all these things, but they didn't want to do

anything.  They'd say, "Oh, that's fine, you go ahead

and do it."  And they wanted you to do all the footwork

and all the paperwork and everything, and then they

would maybe come in and approve of it.  But it was so

difficult to deal with the government, so to speak, on

the reservation.  So heck…

   And then you've got the DNA.  Boy, when they started

that!  I don't know how many times that I was

threatened with the DNA.

   

   Cole:  What exactly is the DNA?

   

   Danoff:  Well, that was the legal…  See, the

government hired lawyers out there, and these people

could come to 'em about the car dealers in Gallup or

anything.  And these guys out there, hell, they'd take

you to court�nothing to them.  But that was always a

threat.  Some of my Navajos, you know, if you sold

their pawn, they'd come in, "Well, I'm goin' to the

DNA!"  "So go to the DNA!"  You know?  You'll always

get those threats.  So you had those things to contend

with.

   There's a lot of things that a business person on

the reservation had to contend with, that they don't

have to contend with in a community like Gallup.

However, there's a lot of things these guys in Gallup

have to contend with, that we didn't have to out there,

too.  So it sort of works both ways.  But we were

always under the gun one way or another�someone was

lookin' at you.

   

   Cole:  Well, did you quit taking pawn after the

whole FTC deal?

   

   Danoff:  Well, yes, more or less when they come out

with these new pawn regulations and things, we did.  I

still took some, but we didn't call it pawn�we just

called it collateral for a debt.  And you know, there

again, the feds or whoever, did a disservice to the

Navajo, because you forced them to come into Gallup to

do their pawn.  We used to be�you know, they'd bring,

in the springtime they'd pawn their shawls.  Well, it

was just a safe place to keep 'em.  They didn't need

'em in the summer, so you'd keep 'em for 'em in the

vault until they wanted to take 'em out.  Same way with

a lot of jewelry.  You know, I kept a lot of jewelry�I

know I just kept it for safekeeping for these people,

because they didn't want it stolen or anything, so

they'd bring it in and pawn it.  And they figured that

was a safe place for 'em.  But when they put those

deals on pawn and everything, yeah, most of the traders

out there, I think they went out of the pawn business.

   

   Cole:  What did the average Navajo person think

about that?  Did they understand what was going on?

   

   Danoff:  Well, I don't think they understood it.  It

was so hard to explain to them why you had to do these

things.  And I'm not sure that they…  The Navajo

people are very acceptable to changes.  They don't get

all uptight about things.  You know, they're very even-

tempered sort of people.  So they accept changes with

very little emotional attitude or anything.  I don't

know, they were just different, and you kinda look at

it, and you hate to see it change, but it is changing,

and it's changing rapidly now.  The people are getting

more educated, the young people are more educated.  I

belong to Rotary here, and every month we have Senior

of the Month come and talk to us at Rotary, and I would

say 50 percent of those seniors that come and talk to

us are Navajos, and pretty darned sharp kids.  You

know, they've got a goal in mind, they want to go to

college, and it's really very enlightening, and I'm

proud of 'em, because the other part, the other side of

that I hate to see, is, like I say, their artwork is

gonna be gone one of these days, and it's rapidly going

now.  Rug weaving:  they're not weaving like they used

to.  Indian jewelry:  we're havin' a fight now, they're

makin' so many imitations comin' in.  And I guess that

comes with progress.  The old things die out, new

things come in.  But I'm afraid the reservation will

probably be out there a long time.  I don't think the

tribal government would want to see it disappear.

   

   Cole:  Anything else, Lew?

   

   Steiger:  Sounds like you don't think that's so

good.  Sounds like you don't think that highly of the

reservation system.

   

   Danoff:  I'll tell you what:  I think…  You know,

I don't know how many years back we made these treaties

with these Indians, but those were made so many years

back, and all those people are all gone and dead, and I

just don't feel like we should still be tied to a

treaty that is outdated and everything, in a changing

environment.  It just don't seem like it's the thing to

do.  And they press on this idea, and I guess I can't

blame 'em, because it's a good deal for 'em.  But some

day, it's gonna hafta all end, and these people are

gonna hafta, unfortunately, do like all the rest of us

do, and make their way.

   You know, I think that reservation would develop if

they would just give the people�turn 'em loose!  But

the way they are now, they'll never develop out there.

I've told people over and over, I wouldn't go out there

for $2 million today.  If they offered me $2 million to

go out there and set up a business, I'd tell 'em, "No

way!" because they just make it so difficult for people

to come out there and do any business at all.  And

that's why they don't have big companies out there.

They don't want to go out there.  Look at the mines out

here, they're gonna shut down one of these days, say,

"To heck with it!" because the tribe's just pressin'

'em so hard.  And they don't realize that hey, how many

people are they hiring out there?  And they're making

good wages out there.  But they're gonna run 'em out.

   The only outfit I know of�and they're no longer�they

used to be General Dynamics, and I don't know who they

are today, but this plant out here at Fort Defiance,

they're the only ones I know of that have been out

there on the reservation for, I imagine, goin' on

thirty years, and haven't had any trouble, they've done

business, they've expanded, and they've done well.

   But everybody else, out in Shiprock, had Fairchild

up there�they were run out of there.  Just too hard to

do business on the reservation.  And they've got, you

know, I can see a lot of opportunity out there for

large businesses.  They've got a fabulous pool for

employment.  I mean, the Navajo is very artistic, and

he can do minute work.  He'd be ideal for computers and

microchips and all that.  They're very precise.  But

nobody'll come out here.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else you'd like to add,

Joe?

   

   Danoff:  God, that's about all I know!  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Well, thank you very much for taking the time

to talk with us.

   

   Danoff:  Well, I hope it does some good, and goes

down in history.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]