VIRGINIA BURNHAM INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE 1]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

We're with Virginia Burnham, at R. B. Burnham and

Company Trading Post in Sanders, Arizona.  It's

July 17, 1998.  Also present in the room is Lew

Steiger, who is running the sound and camera equipment.

We're going to talk to Virginia a bit about her growing

up on the reservation, and her experiences trading with

Indian traders, and also as the wife of an Indian

trader.

   

   Cole:  Virginia, to start, if you could tell us a

little bit about where and when you were born and what

your childhood was like?

   

   Burnham:  Well, I was born on the Navajo

Reservation.  I was raised on the reservation.

Actually back when my mother was carrying me, there was

no transportation, so she tried to give birth on the

reservation in the hogan.  I guess she was having some

problems, and so someone rode a horse to the mission,

which is about fifteen miles, and took a message that

my mother was having a hard time.  So they transported

her�the missionaries did�to Ganado, and that's actually

where I was born.

   

   Cole:  What was the mission?

   

   Burnham:  The Navajo Gospel Mission in Hardrock.

They were really close friends of my mother.

   

   Cole:  What were some of your early childhood

memories?

   

   Burnham:  Well, basically we moved around a lot.  My

mother had a lot of sheep and cattle and so wherever

there was a lot of feed, that's where we went.  We

didn't really have…  Well, she did have a hogan,

which was kind of central, around in the middle of the

grazing area, so we lived there in the wintertime.  The

rest of the time, it was like wherever there was water

and more feed, that's where we went with the sheep and

the cattle, and it was basically just my mother and us

children.  My stepfather didn't stay around very much.

   

   Cole:  How many brothers and sisters do you have?

   

   Burnham:  I have five sisters and one brother on my

mother's side, and then I have one brother on my

father's side.  My father actually was Hopi, from

Oraibi.  My mother is Navajo.

   

   Cole:  And what is your mother's name?


   Burnham:  My mother is Ella Kishkoli Begay.  I was

born Virginia Kishkoli Begay.  And then she remarried,

after my father died, and she had the rest of the kids,

which were the five sisters and one brother that I was

raised with.  And out there on the reservation, we

didn't have any close neighbors�mainly my aunts and

uncles and my grandmother lived at least two to five

miles from each other.  It was just basically our

family.  My husband always said, "Why did those young

kids always hide when we go visit them, or go see a

hogan out there that you want to visit?"  I guess we

did the same thing�I did.  We used to hide every time

we'd see a vehicle or someone coming.  That's because

we never had visitors, and we were all shy, I guess.

We didn't want to…  It was just strangers�we didn't

see strangers.  And after a while, the person comes in,

and then you start peekin' around the side to see who

it is.  Sometimes if it's a relative, then my mother

would call us in and introduce us.  We just were very

quiet.  I guess that's why a lot of the Navajo people

are very quiet, because they just kind of…  You

know, we were in remote areas.

   

   Cole:  When you were traveling in the summer with

the sheep herds, did you live in hogans then?

   

   Burnham:  Sometimes.  Most of the time that I

remember, it was just like camping out.  We'd go take

our provisions and the few necessities�our bedding,

some dishes and stuff.  We'd take that along, and

wherever we settled, it was usually�we'd pick a place,

my mother picks an area maybe under a tree, and that's

where we'll stay for a few days�I don't know, maybe a

month or so�and then move on to another area.  We

didn't have permanent homes in those areas, except for

the winter home.

   

   Cole:  Did your mother weave, too?

   

   Burnham:  Yeah, she did.  The kids learned at a

young age to help her prepare wool.  We learned how to

shear when we were young, learned how to clean, card

wool, and spin.  And then she did the weaving.  I was

always too busy with the sheep or something else,

taking care of my little sisters and brother, to really

learn.  I think my mother just�to her it was peaceful

when she was weaving, because whenever she went to

weaving, she'd always tell us not to bother her or talk

to her.  It was just that kind of a peace with the rug.

We just stayed away from her, and every once in a while

she'd say, "Now I'm going to teach you how to weave,

how to do this."  And we'd just watch her.  She didn't

really say, "Now, do it like this."  We would watch her

do her warping, or start weaving.  I was too young to

be really interested in weaving, so I never really

asked any questions.  I just basically knew.  Once I

tried to weave on my own, and it just happened that day

I was trying to do that, my mother showed up and she

showed me how to do my warp the right way.  But I never

did really learn.  And she did most of her weaving just

for trading with other people.  She would do her

weaving, save it up, and take it to the Gallup

Ceremonial or to the Window Rock Fair.  At the time,

the Flagstaff Powwow was really big.  That's where she

would save all her weavings to trade with the other

people�the Zunis and Santa Domingos.  She loved

jewelry, so she would trade for things that she liked.

   

   Cole:  Would the kids go with her to the fairs and

stuff?

   

   Burnham:  Not all the time.  I'm the oldest one in

the family, so I'd usually end up staying home with all

the little kids.  She might take the youngest two with

her.  She'd always promise that she'd bring us

something, so we stayed home.

   

   Cole:  You would have to tend the sheep, too, then?

   

   Burnham:  Yeah, we did.  We'd tend the sheep and the

cattle and made sure that we had water.  We stayed in

the same area.  Sometimes my grandmother would come and

visit, check on us to see if everything was going okay.

   

   Cole:  Was your grandmother close by then?

   

   Burnham:  My grandmother lived about five miles from

where we were at.  My grandmother was one of those very

lively…  She walked everywhere.  And if it was long

distance, she rode a horse.  Right up to the day she

died�she was ninety-five when she died�she was still

walking long distance, and still doing the things that

she did from her younger days.  So she would always

walk to different areas to visit her grandchildren.

(aside about drinking water)

   

   Cole:  What was your grandmother's name?

   

   Burnham:  Bessie Kishkoli.  You might have heard my

husband talk about the Kishkoli name in the family,

from the Long Walk.  My grandmother and my grandfather

were all Kishkolis, and we carried the name on.  That

means "club foot."  I guess my great-great-grandfather

was named Hosteen Kishkoli, "the man with the club

foot."  And then his son was Begay, and then the

grandkids were Benalis, and it just kept repeating,

because my late uncles were also Kishkoli Begay and

Kishkoli Benali, but they were like the third or

fourth.  You know, the name just carried on.

   Cole:  What was Hosteen Kishkoli known for?, the

great-great-grandfather.

   

   Burnham:  My mother told me a little bit about him,

that he did a lot of�he was kind of famous, I guess,

among the Navajo people.  He did a lot of trading with

other tribes.  And from what my mother said, he was

well-known, traveled long distances.  But we found,

reading the book called The Long Walk, that he was not

only trading goods, but stealing children and trading

them to other tribes, like the Apaches or to Spaniards.

He was just kind of like a chief, I guess.  I don't

really know.  We've heard a lot of stories, but most of

the stories that were told to us are just word of

mouth.  We've never written anything down, nobody has.

You know, the Navajo people don't write, so it's just

something that you're told over and over, and pretty

soon you get it.  Some of it kind of sticks.

   

   Cole:  When you were, like especially maybe alone,

when your mom was off traveling, what would a typical

day be like?  What would you have to do with the sheep,

to manage them?  I don't really know.

   

   Burnham:  Well, first of all, my mother had like

over 1,000 head of sheep, and more than 300 goats.  But

goats is what we didn't like, because they ran.  They

would take off.  My mother had the sheep trained pretty

good, I guess.  From the time she was little, she

started raising some of those lambs, and she would talk

to them, and she could recognize almost every sheep

that she had by different markings.  She knew exactly

which lamb belonged to what sheep.  And I

couldn't�sheep were sheep to me, they're all the same.

If we lost one, she would always know.  She'd say,

"Now, that one that was like this is gone."  But what

we did was we had a corral and every morning, the first

thing we'd do is, if we had small lambs, we'd catch all

the lambs that were the smallest, and put 'em in a pen,

and then the rest we let out.  And then

somebody�usually myself or my cousin and another one of

my sisters�would have to go after the sheep.  We'd just

take them, because there's a lot of coyotes out there,

we had to watch them constantly.  And then there was

other people that had sheep, like my grandmother and my

aunts and uncles.  We all watered our sheep in the same

area.  There was a watering hole there.  So in order to

keep them from getting mixed up, we have to keep our

sheep back until my grandmother has her sheep headed

back her direction.  And then we'd take ours in.  And

then we have to stay there with them and make sure that

all our sheep, when they're leaving, that they're all

together, so someone else can bring their sheep in to

water.  And then for the cattle, we had to make sure

that they had plenty of water.  And if there were small

calves, we always marked them, to make sure that, you

know.  And let my mother know which cow had a calf.

Each one of those was the same�she knew each one, the

markings on them, and she knew which calf belonged to

which one, and so we had to tell her when there was a

new calf that came.  So just a big responsibility.  My

mother was raised that way, so she, at a young age,

even when I was six or seven, a lot of that became my

responsibility because I was the oldest.

   

   Cole:  What about horses and dogs?

   

   Burnham:  Oh, we had dogs.  We had about four dogs

that were really good sheep dogs, and we had to make

sure that they were fed all the time, because when you

take the sheep out to pasture, the dogs were right

there with them.  And also, the dogs would alert you

when there's coyotes or any kind of danger that's

coming around�they would start barking.  So my mother

always, even to this day, she has sheep dogs.  She

always has quite a few.

   With horses, we had maybe two or three horses, and

they had to be very tame, my mother, because most of us

were girls--we had only one boy in the family�my mother

and us girls, so most of the horses that we had were

just like donkeys.  (chuckles)  They don't move, we had

to saddle them up if we needed to go somewhere on the

horses and feed 'em and put 'em up.  We just had a lot

of responsibility.

   

   Cole:  Did you have to feed the animals hay and

stuff like that in the winter?

   

   Burnham:  In the winter, yes.  I remember there was

a lot of feed everywhere, and very seldom did my mother

bring hay, unless the snow was really deep or

something.  Then she would get hay.  But we'd go up

higher in the mountains in the wintertime where there

was more feed.

   

   Cole:  What was your family life like in the

evenings, and stuff like that?

   

   Burnham:  My mother made us get up early, before the

sun was up, every morning, to start our chores.  And

then we went to bed with the sun.  When the sun went

down, we had to be ready for bed.  We always had early

evening dinners, and then lots of times we would sit

around and tell stories, or tell of the day's events.

Then the funnest time I think we had was when my

grandmother used to come over.  Another one of my

grandmother's brothers�we call him Shichei�he used to

come over and tell us stories of the Navajo legends.

You know, the coyotes, and about the lizards�just lots

of stories.  That was like watching TV, I guess.

(chuckles)  We used to want to hear those stories over

and over.  We really enjoyed the stories in the

evenings.

   Cole:  Was he a good storyteller then?  I guess what

I'm wondering, were some people a lot better at telling

the stories?

   

   Burnham:  Oh, my grandmother was a good storyteller,

and so was my grandfather.  Adakai Begay [phonetic

spelling] was his name.  He was an old medicine man,

and he told really good stories.  I never recorded any

of those.  My stepfather, later, when he started

staying around a little bit, I would hear stories.  He

would sit down and try to tell us stories, but he

didn't have…  You know, he would leave some of it

out, and we always reminded him, "No, it's like this!

That's not the way it is!"  But my grandfather's gone

now, and he was the best storyteller, and so was my

grandmother.  I wish I'd have known to record some of

their stories.

   

   Cole:  Was there a trading post near where you

lived?

   

   Burnham:  I told my husband�one day we went up to

where we used to live in the wintertime.  There's an

old gas pump that you pump, one that has a little glass

on the top.  I showed that to him.  I said, "This used

to be our gas pump."  And we had some barrels that my

mother used to bring gas in.  My mother had a little

trading post there.  My aunt and my mother put their

money together and started a little trading post out

there.  They originally put it in my grandmother's log

cabin, which was right next to the main road.  So they

ran a little trading post�mostly just staples, foods,

you know.  Most of the merchandise was stuff that's not

very perishable.  And they sold some gas.  That's my

first experience with a trading post, is that of my

mother's.  I later learned that their backing was from

one of the Hubbell's�Lorenzo Hubbell, I think, had

backed them up on their grocery store.  And then later

my aunt and my mother had some problems.  I guess it

was mainly my aunt's husband that had some problems,

and so they split up, split their merchandise.  My

mother took hers to where our winter hogan was, and had

a little tiny house there that they put up, and that's

where she had her stuff.  And then my aunt left, and

she kept that for I don't know how long.  That's about

the time I started going away to school, so I don't

really know what happened.  One year I came home and it

was all gone.  She had these old, old cash registers,

and I don't know what happened to all that stuff.

   

   Cole:  Where did you go to school?

   

   Burnham:  I started at Pi�on Boarding School in

kindergarten.  And then from there I went to Tuba City

Boarding School.  And then I was shipped to

Albuquerque, the Indian School in Albuquerque.  Then

[I] came back to Snowflake.

   

   Cole:  Would you return in the summers from school?

   

   Burnham:  Yeah.  We left home, I think it was in

August, got on the bus in Chinle, and I didn't see my

mother…  Some of the kids, did, you know�would go

home for Christmas, Thanksgiving or Christmas, the ones

that didn't live very far.  I never did come home for

Christmas or Thanksgiving, until school was out.  I

think we came home like in June, July, and August [we]

were back to school again.

   Cole:  When did you meet Bruce?

   

   Burnham:  I met my husband at the trading post in

Dinnebito.  After my high school, I came back to the

reservation.  It was going to be for just a short time.

I was going to spend the summer with my family and then

go back to California to work.  That's where my aunt

lives, and I lived with my aunt in California for four

years, through my high school.  I planned on going back

over there to work.  And then I got a job working for

Bruce in Dinnebito, and I stayed there for two months.

That's where I met him, in the trading post.  After I

left the trading post, then I just didn't think I was

going to see him again, and one day he came and asked

me out for a date to go deer hunting.  (laughter)  That

was the beginning of our relationship.

   

   Cole:  So where did you go deer hunting?

   

   Burnham:  We went to Kaibab, just for, I think, a

full day, and then he brought me back.  In the Navajo

tradition, or Navajo religion, women aren't supposed to

hunt.  So when my mother found out, I got home and my

mother was there at my apartment.  My little sister was

living with me at the time, and she was going to school

there in Tuba City.  I told her, "I'm going deer

hunting with Bruce, but we'll be back tonight."  And so

we did, and I guess my mother got there before I did.

When I got there, she was very, very upset, and she

told me, "You know, there's a lot of things that women

aren't supposed to do, and this is one of them.  This

is a no-no."  She told me a lot of things, the reasons

why I shouldn't hunt.  So we started off wrong.

(chuckles)  She was trying to run Bruce off the whole

time that we were dating, so finally we just ran off

and got married.

   

   Cole:  Once you were married, was Bruce still

working at Dinnebito then?

   

   Burnham:  Yeah, he was at the trading post, still

working at Dinnebito Trading Post.

   

   Cole:  So did you live there for a while then?

   

   Burnham:  We lived there from January to September,

I think, at the trading post.  I went back to work in

the trading post for a short time while he was there,

and I learned a lot about trading while I was there at

the trading post.  And then we left Dinnebito and went

from there to The Gap Trading Post, with the intentions

of buying The Gap Trading Post, but things just didn't

work out the way we thought they would.  So then we

were there a year at The Gap Trading Post.  And then we

left The Gap and came to Sanders.

   I was telling my husband, a few days ago he was

asking me about trading.  I said, "You know, I really

enjoyed being at The Gap."  And here I have really

enjoyed the trading business with my people.  At

Dinnebito, there were too many relatives.  (chuckles)

All my relatives, you know, the day that Bruce and I

got married, I had more relatives than I knew I had,

and every one of 'em was coming in and wanting

something for nothing, I guess.  I would have someone

come in and say, "Give me some gas."  Never say, "I

need to borrow," or "I'll pay you back," or anything.

They just asked for things and said, "Give it to me."

I told my husband I was really glad to get away from

there, because I just felt very uncomfortable, either

way, because I had to tell these relatives, "I can't

just give things away, because they don't belong to

me."  And we were working for Lij Blair, and I said,

"Things have to be done the proper way."  You know, it

wasn't mine to give away.  And then they felt�you know,

lots of them, the relatives would kind of turn against

you, I guess.  They started calling me names and stuff

because I wouldn't give 'em five gallons of gas or a

bag of groceries or something.  And I just was very,

very uncomfortable in that situation.  And then we

moved to The Gap, and I really enjoyed doing business

with people there.  They were really nice.  I wasn't in

that situation where I was put on the spot all the

time.

   The same here, when we came to Sanders, people were

really different.  I still do enjoy the people that are

here.  With this relocation that took place, a lot of

our relatives from Dinnebito came to this area, but

since they came here it's been really different.

Eloise is one of my relatives.  She works here, one of

our number one clerks here.  The people have been just

totally different.

   

   Cole:  What kinds of things have you done for

trading?  I mean, have you worked all aspects of it?

   Burnham:  I've worked all aspects of it.  When we

first got started here at Cedar Point, it was just

Bruce and I.  We had the little trading post, so he and

I did all the work.  Kids started coming at that time.

We started having children, so I would bring a crib

into the trading post, behind the counter, and work at

the same time, and watch the kids too.  We worked

together more like we were business partners.  Whenever

he had any kind of decision to make, we would sit down

and talk about it, and we made decisions that way.

Even now, it's still like that.  We're more of business

partners.  He would tell me what he intends on doing,

or his new ideas, and ask me for my input, and we just

work together like that.

   

   Cole:  Sounds like you didn't continue to do any

weaving, or you haven't.

   

   Burnham:  No, I don't weave.  I never did learn how

to weave very good, so I didn't weave.  But I did learn

how to silversmith and do gold work.  When we went to

Cedar Point, that's how we got by.  We had the little

trading post, and it was very small and not doing very

well when we took it over.  We were leasing.  And in

order to pay a lot of our bills, I guess I started

doing some silver work.  Well, mostly, it was for just

friends in the area.  (tape turned off and on)

   

   Cole:  You were talking about your jewelry work,

silversmithing and goldsmithing.  Do you still do any

of that?

   

   Burnham:  I don't do a whole lot of silversmithing

anymore.  Bruce is the one that took sand casting class

when we first moved here, and I learned from my husband

how to silversmith then, and gold I learned on my own.

We went to one of our first shows in Flagstaff, and we

sold everything I had, and that's what got us started.

When we came home, we had enough money to hire some

silversmiths and just really get into making jewelry.

That's what we did, we started a production of Indian

jewelry.  I did all the layouts and the design.  I

designed almost everything that went out.  My husband

started doing the same with some things that were

different.  So we really got into the manufacturing of

jewelry for about three years.  Then we got bigger.  I

think we did, for a few years, like eight years or so,

just were really into making jewelry.  It was right

during the jewelry boom.  We did very well.  We got out

of the trading business and did just jewelry

manufacturing for a few years, and then went back.

Bruce got tired of traveling all the time.  (chuckles)

You know, we had to go out and wholesale a lot of our

jewelry.  So he decided that he didn't want to travel

too much, so that jewelry manufacturing enabled us to

build our store here.  And we built this trading post

and got back into the trading business, which is what

he loves more than anything, I think.  He said, "I miss

dealing with the Indian people," with my people, you

know.  So we got back into it, and we've been here ever

since.

   

   Cole:  How do you like the trading business

yourself?

   

   Burnham:  I enjoy it, I love it.  Well, I do a

lot�he�s here most of the time�you know, more than I

have.  We have children that are still in school, so

I'm home taking care of my boys.  And then I do a lot

of the shows, so I usually come in.  He does the buying

of all the rugs.  I do the jewelry and other things.  I

don't do a whole lot with people that are bringing rugs

in.  He's the man for the rugs.  (laughter)  I do like

fetishes and jewelry and paintings and other things.

That's my line over there.  And so we just kinda put

everything together, and we do scheduled shows at least

once a month, and we go to the shows to sell our

merchandise.  That's to keep the money flowing so he

can keep buying rugs.  (laughter)

   

   Steiger:  Are those your earrings that you're

wearing?  Did you design those?

   

   Burnham:  This is my brother's, and my brother is

Hopi.  Emerson is his name.  He does most of the Hopi

inlay.  I do the Navajo jewelry.  Lately I've been

doing�well, I haven't done anything in the last year or

so, but I did a lot of treasure necklaces and I've not

done any silversmithing for quite a while.

   

   Cole:  Do you trade much with the Hopis yourself?

   

   Burnham:  Some, not a whole lot.  We do some.  Most

of our business is with the Navajo people in this area,

with rugs, jewelry, and…

   

   Cole:  Do you have certain jewelers or artists that

you deal with?, the same people all the time?  Or is it

different?

   

   Burnham:  We have quite a few that are the same

artisans.  It's usually people that are like�I usually

chose things that I like.  It's always been my

experience that whenever you like something, you can

sell it.  I always pick things that appeal to me.  It's

real easy for me to sell things that I like.  The same

with rugs.  If I like certain types of rugs, I can sell

'em really easy.  At the shows we both do either�sell

rugs.  And then he'll deal with the weavers.  I used to

put the colors together for a lot of weavers.  When I

was still living here I did pick out the colors that I

liked and put 'em together, and then they would weave

it.  It's not always the way I imagined [it], but the

colors come back, and we started having really good

response to that.  I guess the reason I did that is we

had some rugs that came in where the colors just really

clashed.  No matter what you do with that rug, the

colors just didn't…  You know, we had a hard time

selling the rugs, so I told my husband, "I'm going to

start putting colors together."  I did a lot of that,

and Eloise still does that.  We seem to have really

good response to the colors in the rugs.  We call it

the Burntwater bundles.

   

   Cole:  When you trade or buy jewelry, is there a

similar�like Bruce was saying a lot of time with the

rugs he might loan somebody money to get started, for

six months or whatever�do you do similar kinds of

things with the jewelry people or not?

   

   Burnham:  No, I don't.  He's braver than I am.

(chuckles)  In the jewelry business, we used to have

accounts for only people that were working for us.

That way I would get them the silver and the turquoise,

and I told them exactly what I wanted, the designs and

all that.  I just put everything on paper for them.  I

would weigh out the silver and turquoise, and then they

would bring it back.  There we did some loans like that

against their work, but anymore I just, if I like

something, I buy it.  I've learned that when you

advance money to these people, they can do a sloppy job

and bring it back and say, "Okay, here's your product,"

and you're kinda stuck with it.  And weaving, sometimes

it happens, but most of the time Bruce has learned

that…  I think he's not taken the rug when they

brought it not exactly the way he wanted it.  But with

jewelry, it's a lot harder to do that.

   Cole:  What shows do you go to?  How far do you

travel?

   

   Burnham:  We travel quite a bit.  We just recently

came from the Red Earth Show, which is in Oklahoma

City.  And then we're gettin' ready to go do Costa Mesa

in California.  We do the Gallup Ceremonial and the

Southwest Museum Show, O'odom Tosh in Casa Grande, and

just different shows.  And there's some smaller ones

that we go to.  We used to do a lot of California

shows, but we're not doing them anymore.  We do

Pasadena, California, which is a pretty good-sized

show.

   

   Cole:  Are you selling directly to the public at

those?  Or is it to wholesalers?

   

   Burnham:  Well, we do both.  Most of it's geared for

the general public, but a lot of wholesale buyers come

to the shows, and so we just do both.  And then

sometimes on our way we'll give some of our wholesale

customers calls, and just stop in and sell to them on

the way over or on the way back.

   

   Cole:  What do you see as the future of trading?

   

   Burnham:  The future?  (chuckles)  Well, we've been

kind of worried about…  You know, we have a lot of

open accounts with our customers here, where they have

no collateral, we just lend them money against

whatever�it might be rugs or their checks that come in

every month�they borrow money against that and buy

groceries and stuff.  We've been told that they're

going to demand that a lot of these Navajo people get

checking accounts or savings accounts so that they can

have direct deposits with their Social Security checks.

I think that's gonna hurt us some in the trading

business, but I don't know.  We were with a couple of

people that already have direct deposit, and they're

pretty good about coming in and paying their bill.  But

then there's some that have…  We get stuck with some

accounts.  At Painted Hills we've had maybe a dozen

people.  They'll do really well, as long as you work

with them.  They'll come in and pay their bill and keep

working with you, but one time they want to borrow over

their limit.  If they borrowed more than they can

afford to pay back, then they end up just taking their

check and going somewhere else.  So it's really kind of

hard, it's a gamble that we take in trading.  But

there's a lot of trust between our people and us.  We

know these people, and lots of times it's just…  We

don't take credit applications or anything like that.

They'll come in and talk to us and say, "I get $700 a

month.  I want to open an account."  A lot of the

people that I know that we're working with, they take

their check, in two days, it's gone, there's nothing

left, and then they want to come in and pawn.  They

don't have anything for the rest of the month, and it's

really hard for a lot of these people to manage their

money.  With open accounts like that, they can go a

little bit at a time.  When they come in, you tell

them, "Well, this is how much you've got left."  They

get their groceries a little bit at a time, or borrow

money only when they need it.  I guess when you have it

there…  And the situation with a lot of my people is

that when I have money, my relatives see that I've got

money.  They have no gas, they say, "Okay, I need some

gas money.  Give me some gas money."  And so you put

twenty there.  And then somebody else wants some hay

for their horses, so you give a little.  Pretty soon

it's gone.  It just kind of…  It's hard for a lot of

the people to say no.  It's hard to say, "No, I don't

have it," or "I'm going to have to make this last a

month."  It just goes really fast.

   

   Cole:  What kind of changes do you see, having grown

up on the reservation?

   

   [END SIDE A, BEGIN SIDE B]

   

   Cole:  This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona

University.  It's July 17, 1998.  We're at the R. B.

Burnham and Company Trading Post in Sanders, Arizona.

We're visiting with Virginia Burnham, and we're talking

to her about her life as an Indian trader.  This is

part of the United Indian Traders Association Oral

History Project.

   Virginia, I just was going to ask you about what

kinds of changes you've seen on the reservation,

growing up there, and now when you drive through it and

stuff like that?

   

   Steiger:  This is Tape 2, of a two-part interview so

far.

   

   Burnham:  I have seen a lot of changes.  We used to

drive through the reservation without seeing very many

lights.  Just recently we were driving through, it was

just like driving through town, through the city.  Even

hogans that are out there on the reservation have

outside lights, those streetlights.  I was commenting

to my husband about how many lights�it was just like

going through a city.  We used to come through here and

every once in a while you'd see just a real dim light

out there where somebody lives.  And most of the time

you'd think that there's nothing out there when you

don't see any lights.  There was satellite dishes

everywhere, and TV antennas.  People, the reservation,

a lot of those people have more than one vehicle in

their yard.  I was just saying I didn't…  When I was

growing up, we didn't even have a vehicle.  There was

only one man out there north of where my mother lived

that used to have a truck, and he would come down and

anybody that wanted to go to the trading post would be

standing on the side of the road.  They'd wave him down

and he would give 'em a ride down there.  And then the

same coming back.  If someone was coming up, he'd pick

'em all back up and drop them off again.  Sometimes my

mother would make special arrangements, because she

went to the trading post maybe once a month or once

every two months.  She would make arrangements with

someone to take her so she can get a month's worth of

groceries or whatever she needed to get.  But there's

so many vehicles out there anymore.  Used to see horse-

drawn wagons at the trading post, when you'd go to the

trading post.  Even when I started working at Dinnebito

there were still people with wagons and on horseback

that used to come to the trading post, but you don't

see any of that anymore.

   

   Cole:  What trading post did your mom used to travel

to?, when the guy would pick her up in the truck.

   

   Burnham:  Oh, she went to Dinnebito Trading Post,

which is where my husband used to work.  And then there

was another one, Oraibi Trading Post.  I guess that was

owned by the Hubbells.  There was a different trader

there before Lij Blair.  He was really good friends,

became really close to the Navajo people, just like Lij

and Bruce did.  My mother used to say that these

traders…  When she was trading before, I knew very

much about the trading business, when I was younger.

She'd always talk about saying, "I want to go see my

friend, the trader."  So she'd go down and she may not

have any money, but they would let her charge, I guess,

for whatever she needed, because in those days she

would bring home I don't know how much money's worth of

groceries, but it was a lot of groceries�all the staple

items.  She would bring a lot of stuff back.  I guess

what she did was, she charged on an account.  And then

when shearing season came, she would take her wool back

to that trader, and then they would weigh it up and

deduct her account and pay her whatever was the price

of that wool.  And then she would charge again from

there until the next time when it was time for selling

lambs.  And then she would pay her bill and get

whatever was coming to her in cash.  And then they

start all over again, just charge until maybe she might

sell some cattle.  That's what I learned later on,

after.  Sometimes I used to wonder where my mother got

money when we're out there on the reservation.  She

didn't weave, all we had was sheep and stuff.  I guess

that's what was happening this whole time.  She always

said, "I'm gonna go see my friend, the trader."  So

they would trade with her, and that way.  From what she

said, she has become really close to a lot of the

traders out there on the reservation.  She was very

close to the Hubbells, and that's who, I guess, gave

her the start-up in her trading post.  And then with

some other traders that were out there, one of them was

Lij Blair, and she always had nothing but good to say

about them, because she said they were, in a lot of

ways, they were the mailmen, they bought the cattle and

sheep.  And then whenever there was a death in the

family or something like that happens, they go to the

trader and the trader lets them get whatever they need.

And then lots of times even the traders would help them

bury their loved ones.  And if there was somebody sick,

the trader would help them out.  On these spur-of-the-

moment things that happened, the trader was there to

help them in a lot of different ways.  And that's

something that my mother always said, was, "That's why

he was a good friend.  He's always giving."

   And another thing that I guess the traders have made

opportunities possible for them.  If it wasn't for the

traders, they would not have any place to sell even

hides that they used to�you know, when they'd butcher a

sheep, they'd save all the hides, and the trader takes

it and sells it.  The trader finds the market for all

the products that the Navajo people have.  The rugs and

any kind of art that the Indian people have, the

traders, the one that found the market for them outside

of…  You know, out there, there's no transportation.

At the time I was growing up, you couldn't afford to go

around trying to sell a rug to somebody, or anything

else.  So they went straight to the trader, and he's

the one that took their stuff and took it out other

places, or shipped 'em out, whatever they did.  So he

just kind of took care of everything and made

opportunities for them to continue with their art.  The

silversmithing, they bought the jewelry, they bought

the rugs, they bought the baskets.  I guess if the

trader wasn't there to do that, they wouldn't be where

they're at today.

   

   Cole:  So how do you feel about the changes that

have happened when you drive around the reservation?

   

   Burnham:  I guess it's good in a lot of ways, for

being a trader myself.  We've lost a lot of really good

customers:  Where they used to trade with us, now they

have a vehicle, so they go to town, or go some other

places.  There's still some really good, loyal

customers that we have, but not as many as we used to.

Whereas before all the vehicles, the people really

depended on us here to have the merchandise for them to

do the trading.  But it's not so any more.  They can

jump in the truck and go to Farmington if they want to,

which is good for a lot of them.

   

   Cole:  What are some of your fondest memories of

trading or growing up?

   

   Burnham:  Since we've been here?

   

   Cole:  Sure.

   

   Burnham:  I guess a lot of it has to do with just

rugs.  When I first came here, I had never seen a

vegetable dyed rug before.  I thought all rugs were

red, black, and greys.  The western part of the

reservation is where I came from, and that's what…

When I see a Navajo rug, those are the colors I have in

my mind.  When we came here, the first rug that we saw

had real pale yellow and cream and light brown�you

know, tan colors.  I thought it had to be faded out or

something�something's wrong with that.  Another lady

brought another rug, and the trading post that we got

had a couple of rugs like this.  And so then we had

another lady that brought the rug, and it was similar

colors, and I thought, "Something's wrong with these

rugs.  These people don't know how to…  I don't

think they're Navajo rugs."  And my husband said,

"These are vegetable dyed rugs.  They are hand woven."

So that was very interesting.  And when we started

working with a lot of these people, I learned so much

about weaving, and about the colors that you can get

from plant dyes.  And then just working closely with

people like that, getting to know them.  People that

came to us for help, I've always enjoyed, even though

we were just getting started and we didn't have a whole

lot.  My husband and I had rice and beans for dinner

almost every night, but we kept our bills paid.  People

around us here in the area, just because we had the

trading post, I guess in their minds we were very

wealthy, just because we had the store.  Lots of times

we didn't have any money because all our money was

going to…  You know, they were charging, and we had

bills to pay and rent to pay, and then buying their

merchandise, because we had to keep people eating.

Some of these people would come in and they'd ask me,

"Sister, I need a ride to Gallup.  My son is very

sick."  Those are some of the memories of have of just

saying, "Okay, I'll take you," even though we really

couldn't afford it.  My husband would give me enough

money for gas and I'd take 'em to Gallup to the

hospital or to wherever they needed to go.  Sometimes

they'd come in and buy groceries, just hitchhiking from

the area that they live, come in, buy groceries and

stuff, and they have no way of taking it back, so they

would ask me if I would take 'em home.  And so I load

up their stuff and just visit with them.  I got to know

a lot of people.

   We had adopted like a grandma here.  There was an

older lady [who] didn't have any really close…  She

didn't have any kids of her own, it was just her nieces

and nephews, and she was very old.  Anytime I had

anything extra, I would put it in a box and take it to

her.  And then my husband and I and our kids would go

out and chop wood and take her a load of wood in the

wintertime, haul her some water and stuff.  It's just

gettin' really close to these people.  We've got really

a lot of people that we're really close to, trading.

They come in, they have a lot of respect for me and for

Bruce and for our kids.  You know, my daughter works

here, and she hears a lot of things about me and how

(chuckles) some of the kids her age come in, and I

guess their mother talks about us, how we've become

really close.  It's just a very interesting life in

this trading business.  (pause for customers to see

rugs, tape turned off and on)

   

   Burnham:  Do you remember what we were talking

about?

   

   Steiger:  Seems like you were talking about helping

your neighbors, helping these people.  I think you had

just talked about somebody showing up, saying, "I need

to get to Farmington," so you get in the car.  And that

had to do with… (

   

   Cole:  Some of your fondest memories.)  Yeah,

memories of trading and like that.

   

   Burnham:  Ask me something else.

   

   Cole:  I'll ask you our favorite question here.  If

you could change anything about your life, would you do

it?

   Burnham:  Probably not.  I've been pretty happy with

what I'm doing.  It's been a very interesting life with

Bruce and the trading business.  We've met a lot of

people, I have learned a lot about all kinds of

arts�not just Navajo, not just this area, but I've

learned a lot about arts from other tribes, even the

Northwest coastal, from Ojibwa to just all over the

place.  We have traveled in a lot of different places.

I've also learned a lot about, have met lots of people

out there doing shows.  We've made lots of wonderful,

wonderful friends, just out traveling.  So just about

anywhere we go, we have someone that we're close to.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else you'd like to add?

   

   Burnham:  I don't think so.

   

   Cole:  How about Lew?  Lew always has a couple good

questions.

   

   Steiger:  I can't say always!  (pause)

   

   Burnham:  That interruption kind of…  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Yeah, that's what happens.

   

   Burnham:  It made my mind go blank.

   

   Steiger:  You said you have a brother who's Hopi.

Did that kind of put you right in the middle of this

whole land dispute?  I know that's probably another can

of worms, and maybe you don't even want to talk about

that, but has that been difficult?

   Burnham:  You know, actually not.  My mother

has�we've always traded with the Hopis.  Ever since I

was little, the Hopis came, whenever they came up to

where my mother lives, they never come empty-handed.

They always have buckets of peaches or apricots or

melon or corn.  They used to bring my mother stuff.

And then my mother, in turn, when she goes down there,

would take mutton.  She'd butcher two or three sheep

and take mutton down there to the Hopis.  They did a

lot of trading and became really good friends.  That's

where she met my father down there.  And one of my

aunts was also married to a Hopi.  They've always been

really close.  A lot of the dispute that they were

talking about was mainly among the people that don't

even have a whole lot to do with the tribes.  I don't

know who's fighting.  There is a little bit of, I

guess, things like that going on�fighting among just a

few people�but it's not the whole tribe.  We still go

to the Hopi Reservations and still communicate and

trade.  We have a lot of friends that are Hopis.  In

fact, just last year, we were invited by some people

there to the dance.

   This woman that I met at the show, she asked my

family and I to come to one of their dances there on

the mesa.  She told us where she lived, and to come to

her house.  We got there and she had a feast�just

everything�some really good food laid out.  And then

when we got there, about fifteen minutes later, my

sister and her husband drove in.  I didn't know that

they were related to my brother-in-law.  My brother-in-

law's cousin, I think, was married to one of the Hopi

women that invited us.  And so it was really (chuckles)

strange, really funny, that my sister and I met there.

They're just wonderful people.  We went to their dance

and they made room for us right in the front.  They're

really good people, the Hopis are, and so are a lot of

the Navajos.

   

   Steiger:  I know I'll think of something about the

time we pack all this stuff up and put it in the car.

   

   Cole:  One thing, I never did get, what your

father's name was.

   

   Burnham:  My real father was Emerson Horace

[phonetic spelling].  My great-grandfather was Horace

Kwani [phonetic spelling].  My grandmother's name was

Jenny Horace.  She died a few years ago.  That's on my

father's side.  My brother is Emerson Horace, Jr.  He

lives in Mesa.  I have some nephews and nieces on that

side.  Then I have a stepfather.  His name is Leonard

Deal [phonetic spelling].  He's Navajo.  So all of my

sisters and my brother are full-blooded Navajo.

   

   Steiger:  Well, I can't think of anything right now.

I keep thinking I should.

   

   Cole:  Well, thank you, Virginia, for doing an

interview with us.

   

   Burnham:  Well, thank you for the opportunity.

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]