Kay Whitaker interview

[This is Anne Holcomb, a summer intern with the Cline Library. Today—July 2, 2002—we are conducting and interview] with Kay Whitaker, and we're interviewing for the “Fire on the Plateau” Project.

Holcomb: If you'd like to just start out and maybe tell us a little bit about your educational and personal background, and how long ago you came to Northern Arizona.

Whitaker: Okay, I'm the daughter of an Air Force family, and my dad was stationed at Edwards and George Air Force Base in Southern California, and so after I -I was ready for a change, I was ready to see a little green and get out of the desert, and so I came to NAU in 1973. So I've lived here for twenty-nine years. I started with a degree in psychology and have always been interested in library work. And so I started to take classes from Dr. Harlan Johnson, recently retired, and received a lot of encouragement from him. And so I took a library practice class in 1975 at the public library, and I've been there ever since. I started working, getting paid, that same year, and I've worked in just about every department. I didn't go to get my master's degree until 1985, so I'd worked for ten years in the public library before I actually went to U of A and got my master's degree -which is not a bad way to do it, really.

Holcomb: Okay, how did you and your husband meet, and was he employed as a firefighter at that time?

Whitaker: Yeah, we met at a bar called Mad Dog's. He was working as a firefighter then. I was actually driving the county bookmobile when I met him, and so we've been together since 1977. And that worked out fine because we didn't have -it was just the two of us, and we didn't have any pets or anything, and so he'd be off on a fire and I'd be off in the bookmobile. In those days, I was gone for three days and two nights up at the North Rim every two weeks, and so we just went our own way and saw each other when it worked out.

Holcomb: So did you mostly drive the bookmobile to the Grand Canyon, or did you go (unclear).

Whitaker: It was all over Coconino County. And also, I drove the bookmobile to a number of ranger stations. I used to go to Happy Jack and Blue Ridge and Jacob Lake. Also the Park Service. I knew a lot of the Park Service firefighters, including Steve Pine. That was back at a time when you couldn't even get a newspaper subscription in Marble Canyon or the North Rim, and so they were always very happy to see me. I can remember driving up to Jacob Lake and here are all these filthy guys in their Nomex shirts. They'd just gotten off a fire, and it was getting dark and everything. "I really should go." And they said, "Kay, please don't go. We'll feel for books." "Get your sooty hands off my books!" you know. But that was just part of it. A lot of river runners and a lot of firefighters. It was a great job, best job I ever had.

Holcomb: What were their reading preferences?

Whitaker: All over the map. A lot of it depended on where they were from. A lot of guys came from other states, and so they were interested in history and natural history -a lot of that kind of thing, a lot of interest in the outdoors, certainly. I think they were really excited about coming to this part of the country, and so they wanted to learn about it as much as they could.

Holcomb: Have you seen a difference in how Flagstaff and its residents have dealt with fire danger, like the awareness of wildfires, in the time since you've been here?

Whitaker: I don't think so. There's certainly a lot more people than there used to be. I think there's always been an awareness of it. I can remember even back when they had the Radio Fire in '77 on Mt. Elden. I was living with some river runners, and I remember that -maybe things were less formalized, but I can remember some of the guys that I knew actually volunteering for some of those fires. I think people were nervous about it. It was, again, extreme conditions. And again, I can remember watching that fire from the parking lot of the Museum Club Bar. And my husband -he wasn't my husband then -but he was actually on a different fire. There were so many fires right then, that even though they were pulling most of their resources to Mt. Elden, I remember he was on a different fire. I can't remember the name of it.

We were laughing, John and I were laughing, a couple of weeks ago when they did the interview with the man who had been on the Radio Fire twenty-five years ago, and I looked at the caption for the photograph they used, and it said, "Courtesy of the Arizona Historical Society." I'm going, "Man! I'm feeling old!" We could have given them a picture.

But I think people have always been aware of it. There's certainly more subdivisions that are close to the forest now, which is a worry. But I think it's always been on people's minds.

Holcomb: What kind of firefighting job does John have? Is he like on an engine crew?

Whitaker: Actually, he started out in prevention, and then he got on an engine that was stationed.... Where were they? Oh! he was at the Mormon Lake guard station, and then he was moved to a engine which was actually in Steve Dudley's driveway. It was like the unofficial guard station. It was based out of Steve's house. And I don't know when that stopped. John actually started working at the mill in 1980, I think, scaling timber. And that was his official job, but he's worked like in logistics and supplies and different kinds of things off and on ever since. Actually, I think a picture of John, with his little computer, twenty years ago, was probably one of the first color front page photos that The Arizona Daily Sun ever did. So there he was, standing on logs.

Holcomb: Kind of related too, the whole idea of fire prevention and stuff like that: As a librarian, have you ever organized any programming or public education activities related to wildfire? and have you ever cooperated with the Forest Service or something like that to kind of help educate people?

Whitaker: You know, it hasn't been anything that's been instigated by the library. I think certainly the library is a place where they bring material to us to distribute to the public, simply because we're open sixty-eight hours a week, and we're very easy to find. People expect to find that kind of information there. So we're kind of a passive kind of relationship in a way, with them -although they've always been really good about give us Smokey the Bear bookmarks every summer for all the kids.

Holcomb: What other kind of materials do they usually (unclear) the library?

Whitaker: Well, informational kinds of things, basically -maybe a lot of the same kinds of things that they hand out at the county fair, although I think that they were involved with the defensible space insert that they did with the city fire department. They have those for us to give out to people who are concerned about that.

Holcomb: I'm not sure, if you want to describe maybe a little bit about what it's like to live with a firefighter, and what that job environment is like when they're gone so much time of the year, and then they're back and it's kind of unpredictable.

Whitaker: Yeah, it is unpredictable. I think this worked for us for the same reason that Hazel Robinson, who used to be the library director, asked me if I would be interested in driving the county bookmobile, which at the time was a piece of junk on wheels and fell apart all the time. And she said, "It's going to break, and I know you Kay, you don't get excited about things. You stay calm, and it's not going to worry you." And I think I can say the same thing about being married to a firefighter, because you just don't know. You just don't know. I would come home, and John wouldn't be there, and I think, "Well, maybe he's out for a beer with the guys," and he wouldn't come home, and he wouldn't come home. It didn't ever really bother me. He's a very capable guy who can take care of himself. It's kind of funny, my claim to fame is, in all the years he fought fires, I never called the dispatcher to find out where he was, or if he was coming back, when he was coming back. We just took it in stride. There was no sense in getting worried about it. I mean, he can take care of himself. We had a yellow lab [i.e., labrador dog] at the time, and I can remember I used to leave the light on for John in case he did come home. I quit doing that, because our dog would pace all night on our hardwood floors. So I'd just turn off the light and say, "You know, we both have to go to work, and one of us has to get some sleep." So that's just the way it goes.

I think that's the best way to do it, just the best way to do it. I can remember his boss, Larry Anderson, who recently retired from the fires, called me one night to tell me that John wasn't coming home, that I certainly appreciated, but I was already in bed, sound asleep -I wasn't worried about it. I think the funniest one I ever had was I got a voice mail from John, asking me to call him, which is really, really unusual, because no matter what he's ever done, he's always been out in the field, and it was a matter of going through the dispatcher, and having him have his radio on, and it was a series of back-and-forth kinds of things, and so there was just not much that couldn't wait. And so he had left me a message, asking me to call him, and I was busy, and I wasn't able to call him probably until the afternoon. And I called the receptionist at the Mormon Lake Office and I asked for John, and she said, "Oh, he's in Idaho." I guess that's why he called. See you when the snow flies!

When he was in Yellowstone, he was gone for probably a month. He was working with a troop of Marines. That was one of the fires where they actually had a lot of military influence. That was real interesting. I'm not my nature a worrier, I'm just not. So it worked out fine. It was just at the spur of the moment.

Holcomb: That's great. Have you yourself ever had any up-close experiences with fire?

Whitaker: Only with smelly fire clothes. (laughter) Sometimes John would be so tired, he'd get home in the middle of the night, and he would be filthy. Fires are filthy and smelly. He'd take off his firefighting clothes and throw them on the back porch and sleep on the floor because he was too tired to clean up and take a shower and come to bed. I've not had any personal experience with fire. I'd like to keep it that way.

Holcomb: What's your perspective on the fire that we're having now? I think it's really sad. The fact that it's human-caused is very, very sad to me. I'm even sorrier to say that I'm not surprised that it was started by a contract firefighter who lives in a very, very poor area. When I read in the paper that the Rodeo Fire began on the reservation, John and I had the immediate same reaction. This is not unprecedented, this has happened before over the years. There's been firefighters who have started fires to make some money, to make some overtime. There's just never been anything like this. I mean, this is unprecedented. My understanding is half of the Apache-Sitgreaves, which the firefighters call the "A" Bar "S" [A-S], is gone.

And we have a personal concern here also, because Forest Lakes Library is in Coconino County. And Forest Lakes Library, because it is -there's no governing body there -is essentially, there's just a homeowners' association. Cheryl Rife [phonetic], who's the employee at the Forest Lakes Library, Forest Lakes is a branch of ours, and Forest Lakes is an employee of the City of Flagstaff. And Cheryl was forced to leave her home last Saturday. She's safe with her children and her mother in Phoenix, but we have some personal concerns about I have to turn in her time sheet tomorrow, and I don't know what to do. She's still evacuated from her home because of this fire. And of course I had a number of people asked me, "What would happen if the library burned?" this little library. And I said, "Of all the libraries in Coconino County, this would probably be the one that we can most easily replace, simply because it's a very new library, and it doesn't have archival material. It's basically a popular collection, which we could replace if we need to. That's another phase of it. We know people who've had to evacuate.

Holcomb: What would happen, for example, if Flagstaff had to be evacuated? What would you do with the library?

Whitaker: Well, I think certainly, if we had time, what we would do would be to try to save our archival collection and our Arizona collection, as much as we could. I wasn't able to attend this meeting, but Dave Wilcox, who's the city manager, was saying that if there's a fire in Flagstaff, we, as city employees, are going to be expected to help people. It's not like we would be going home and packing up. We certainly would have a role to play in this. And actually, John and I talked about this, as the fire danger continued. We actually talked about, depending on where the fire was, where we might want to meet up later. We've never had this conversation before. John is very, very matter of fact about this kind of thing. He started fighting fires in the Chiricahuas in 1970, getting dropped off of helicopters. He's very matter of fact about this, and for him to say this to me was a little startling. But what we decided was, if the fire wasn't from the west, we would go to Steve Dudley's house, kind of like for old times. He has a new place out in Williams, and we thought.... Steve doesn't know this yet. I think we'll tell him. Actually, we're going to see Steve and his wife, Mary, on Sunday, because it's John's fiftieth birthday, and so we're going to spend it with old friends. And Steve and Mary are certainly old friends. And I think we'll tell them then that we're coming to their house.

Underhill: Steve's being interviewed next week, so you can warn him. We know this! (laughter)

Whitaker: We know this, right. So there's kind of a history here, it all kind of ties in.

Holcomb: Do you have any special anecdotes from that history, with the group of firefighters that you know, and stuff like that?

Whitaker: Well, they've always been a lot of fun. One of the things that's always impressed me with the firefighters is just how prepared they are. I can remember going to the Mormon Lake Office for something unrelated -I think we were going to go get a load of firewood or something -and the call came in on the radio that Lido Contreras [phonetic] who was one of the firefighters back in the seventies had had a motorcycle accident on one of the Forest Service roads, and these guys.... I would have been thinking, "Oh, gosh! let's think about what we need to do, and let's call 9-1-1." These guys just all jumped up and ran to their truck and were out of there before I even had time to think about it. They need to be prepared. They've got to be, and they have to be able to react at a moment's notice, which is not my training at all -certainly not.

I can think of another time we went to, again, some mutual friends, Jim and Elaine Huff [phonetic], who worked up at Grand Canyon. And Elaine actually used to work with Steve Pine. We were there for Thanksgiving dinner, and of course the Forest Service radio is always on, and there was a call that there was a fire, and so Jim and Steve Dudley and my husband just jumped up in the middle of dinner and ran off to this fire, and the rest of us are thinking, "You know what, we're firefighters' wives, and we're eating. We're not waiting. We know how this goes." (laughter) That's just what you have to do. This is how you have to make it work. It was fun. It was kind of a fun way to live.

Holcomb: What was the most unexpected time that a fire happened, that you know of?

Whitaker: Oh, well, a couple of times when the guys -and Steve Dudley's driveway is the guardhouse -they had to go put out fires at the Willard Springs Dump. And that was hideous. You think these guys smell bad in a normal forest fire, but this was, "Back off, guys!" And certainly in the seventies, they used to jump on everything. It seemed like they didn't let anything burn, and they certainly tried to get away from that, but this was at a time when it didn't matter what it was, or how far away it was, they had to go put it out.

Holcomb: So you have seen a lot of changes in that, like how they fight the fires, and which ones they go to, over the years?

Whitaker: Uh-huh, although this year is so extreme, I wonder how they're going to be able to reconcile that. I mean, I think certainly lightning fires are on everybody's minds, and I just wonder how they plan to handle some of those lightning fires, simply because the danger is so extreme.

Holcomb: That's actually the next question I was going to ask: What do you see happening in the future with wildfires and awareness of it, and firefighting, and the whole general picture?

Whitaker: I think they need to work much harder on consensus, and not having this brick wall that everybody seems to be fighting against. My husband now is officially in Timber, but part of his job has been to work with groups like Grand Canyon Trust, and some of the other environmental groups, and part of his job was to identify twenty-acre plots for each of these groups to experiment with. Everybody wants the forest to be healthy, and there's certainly.... I think that there's an issue of contention about whether or not there should be any sort of commercial involvement in this. I think there's a couple of groups who don't want any sort of commercial involvement, even if it involves thinning the forest, which I think pretty much everybody is agreed on. But part of what John has done is developing these plots for these groups to see what works, what they think will work. And certainly I think another really serious issue is the fact there is no commercial market for these small logs that people want to take out. I actually was able to visit the little lumber mill they have outside of Cameron. They're actually building hogans from some of the small lumber, and it's a wonderful idea, I hope it works. But it's just barely getting off the ground. I think it's a hard issue. I know that John told me that he was asked to put up a timber sale in an area that was pretty rugged, and this is part of the way they're trying to get rid of some of the fire danger -no one bid on the sale. So what do you do with the stuff?

I think that this fire in Arizona is going to hopefully shock people into trying to cooperate a little more.

Holcomb: What are the things you think usually causes that brick wall, 'cause there is so much debate about thinning, and it seems like it does just keep stagnating.

Whitaker: I think a lot of it's based on history. It's based on the fact that there are a number of people who resent the fact that logging companies were making a profit on public land. And there's just some history there that I don't think they've been able to overcome -yet. Hopefully, they will.

Holcomb: Having experienced the style of firefighter living and stuff like that, what advice would you give to people who themselves are trying to prepare for fire and things like that?

Whitaker: As far as like in your house? Well, it's like I said, this is so extreme. We've never really had a plan. What came to my mind this year, if there is a crisis in Flagstaff involving fire, I'm not going to see my husband. I mean, he's going to be involved elsewhere. I didn't think about me also being involved as a city employee, but my immediate reaction was, "We need to think of a place where we can meet up later." Another piece of advice that I would have is probably to think of a couple of people that you know, family members who are outside of the Flagstaff community, and call them, and let them be command central, so people from outside the area will know where you are, and know information about you. We just did this. John has a cousin who lives in Show Low, and they were evacuated. She and her children went to Tucson, but her husband works for DPS, and so of course he had to stay. And we weren't able to get a hold of him of course, but one of John's aunt's turned into command central, and so everybody was feeding information in to her. So that was very, very helpful, and lessened a lot of uncertainty about what was happening in Show Low.

Holcomb: It's interesting how many people do have to stay. I never thought of that before.

Whitaker: Yeah, I hadn't thought about it, really. I knew that John wouldn't be able to come home. But I may not be able to either. I'm a division head of the City of Flagstaff, and I could be pressed into duty. And certainly I think if the fire wasn't in west Flagstaff, it would make sense to leave the library open, because we're a very large facility, and people obviously expect to go to the library for information. I think we would probably be a logical place to keep open, if we could.

Holcomb: That's actually most of the questions that I have. Is there anything else that you'd like to talk about?

Whitaker: Yeah, actually. I was thinking a little bit about the fact that there's more women firefighters now. It was pretty unusual back in the seventies when John actually was on an engine. His perspective on working with women firefighters was -well, for one thing, he was glad to see that it made the guys kind of clean up their act a little bit, that they were a little more careful about what they said or what they did. Also, he told me that he thought the women firefighters brought in a thoughtfulness to what they were doing, that maybe wasn't there with all the guys -that they just literally jump right into things, which is probably what they need to do -but there was a little more thought about what they were doing, with women on the crew. And also, he always told me he was really impressed by the stamina of the women firefighters -very impressed with the stamina.

Holcomb: And specific stories or examples that he's told you about, or that you may know personally?

Whitaker: Yeah. Oh, gosh, what was her name? Mary.... She's related to the Riordans, and she fought fires for years. And she was just wonderful. Steve Dudley will know her name, because she worked with Steve quite a bit. But she was wonderful. She always kept her sense of humor about any situation, and didn't expect to be treated any differently, and the guys really liked her. I think she was a great asset to them.

Underhill: Can you describe, Kay, where you were when the Radio Fire broke out, and kind of what impact that had on you and friends in Flagstaff.

Whitaker: That started when I was living with a bunch of river runners. We went out to the Museum Club. I had more stamina and could go to more bars then. (laughter) And I can remember that Mt. Elden just looked like it was glowing, and it was beautiful and horrible at the same time. And I had forgotten -until I read the article in the paper, I had forgotten just how many communities that was threatening. I also remember that we were looking at the fire, and we had to go up to Lee's Ferry the next day. I don't think we personally had the concern about the house. We were living in a house at the very top of Humphreys back then. And I don't know, it was like, "Oh! this is horrible! but we have to go up to the river." I would have to say it was kind of horrible and beautiful at the same time. I would say the same thing about the fire that left the mark on the mountain last year. It's kind of like a train wreck, something that you can't look away from.

Holcomb: Can I ask, how did you come to be living with river runners?

Whitaker: Bookmobile! (laughs) Like I said, there were a lot of firefighters, and there were a lot of river runners up at Marble Canyon. I got to know these people, and sometimes they'd come sleep on my floor when they were in town in Flagstaff. I also had a roommate who was married at the time to the editor of the Grand Canyon newspaper, and so he knew a bunch of these people, and so it just turned out that they went from sleeping on our floor to paying the rent. It was so fun, because I was driving the bookmobile, so I was like basically the only gainfully employed person in the house, except for the guys who were river runners. And I would wake up in the morning and have to go to work, and I'd be stepping over people I'd never seen before. And then there'd be people who were on these commercial trips who would come to the house. And all these people needed to take showers. And so we actually had a drawer in a chest of drawers that people would throw money into, to take a shower. And it always more than paid for our utilities bills. So casual -things were casual like that. So that was a lot of fun.

Holcomb: Driving the bookmobile to these remote places, did you ever have any breakdowns or driving adventures?

Whitaker: All the time! For the first few years I drove the bookmobile, it was like a big step van. And this is when the road up to Marble Canyon and the North Rim was incredibly rough. And if I didn't keep the books packed in really, really tight, they'd be flying off the shelves. And then the river runners actually called that road back then, "running the rapids," because it was just like this. It was incredible. But this stupid van that I drove broke down all the time. And like I said, the director at the time said she thought I could handle it, because I stay pretty calm. And so it would break down, and I just would abandon it. One time I got a ride, I rode in the back of the Tom's Peanut truck van, and all the peanuts were swinging back and forth, and I got a ride in the peanut van. I would just hitchhike back.

And then I got a new bookmobile that was much nicer and didn't break down as often, so I was feeling like I was living in the lap of luxury, until the time when I was up at Jacob Lake, and I was going down the switchbacks there, which are quite steep, and the accelerator stuck. And so I was like flying down these switchbacks, standing on the brakes in this large vehicle. I got down off the switchbacks, and then I basically was able to fly back to Flagstaff without even bothering to hit the accelerator. So it was pretty exciting. It was fun. It was a lot of fun to drive the bookmobile.

Holcomb: How many books, on average, did you usually have in there?

Whitaker: Oh, I think about 2,500. It was fun because it was a very personal kind of service. There was no catalog, and so what you did, you knew your material, and you knew the people really, really well. A lot of them got to be good friends. I still see a few of them in the libraries. And that's been twenty years -I haven't driven the bookmobile in twenty years -but it's still running.

Holcomb: Do you have any more questions, Karen?

Underhill: Kay, how has fire changed, do you think? You mentioned that it was a dry time in 1977. How would you compare it to the season now, and what have you seen in those intervening years in terms of a typical fire season.

Holcomb: Well, I think that this is about as bad as I've ever seen it. I have to say that I probably, because I was like running around with river runners, and not paying any attention to my yard back in those days, that I probably was a little less concerned then. I felt more mobile, myself. I didn't realize I was still going to be here after all these years. I think part of my concern now is because I feel like so much a part of this community, and it's really scary to think that part of this community could be gone. I think I felt much more transient back in those days. I think that colors my perception.

Underhill: Have you ever seen it this dry?

Whitaker: No.

Holcomb: What are your predictions for the monsoon season?

Whitaker: Oh, let's have a monster monsoon season -let's do that. Let's skip the dry lightning thing and go right into the really, really heavy rain. Back in the days when we used to have these monsoons that were so heavy they were exciting, and almost scary in a way -I'd love to see that happen again.

Underhill: Where you can float down the street in an inner tube.

Whitaker: Right! When small cars were floating under the underpass. I've seen that.

Holcomb: Is there usually a lot of damage from dry lightning storms every year? Do fires continually get started? Or is it different some years?

Whitaker: Well, I think normally it's just a minor to moderate concern, would be my feeling. This year I think probably everybody, in the back of their minds, has the feeling that this could get out of control really quickly.

Holcomb: Actually, there is something I'm curious about. When a lightning fire starts, how long does it take before the firefighters usually have to go find it? (unclear)

Whitaker: Actually, maybe that would be a better question for Steve. But I do remember that when John would get called up on those kind of fires, they'd be off, and the dispatchers would have bets on which crew would get there the quickest. There was a dispatcher who consistently voted for the crew that John was on, and Steve, and they always got there first. Good sense of direction. I think that's a lot of it -you have to have a really good sense of direction, and be able to keep your bearings when there's a lot of smoke. John has a tremendous sense of direction, and the couple of times that he's gotten kind of -not lost, but sort of going in the wrong direction, it really surprised him, because I think that's a big part of it, your ability to find this tiny little fire out in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure sometimes it takes a while to get to them.

Underhill: Kay, have you ever experienced a time -obviously (unclear) close before, but with all the homeless people being rounded up and placed at the Salvation Army, is this a first?

Whitaker: Right, this is a first. I don't ever recall this happening before. It's interesting, because I can see a difference in the library, what's happening, simply because the homeless don't really have a lot of choices this year, and so we're not seeing as many of them. We are getting hammered by travelers, and tourists, certainly. I talked to some young men from Poland this week, and that's always fun. But as far as the homeless people, they're really pretty few and far between this year.

Underhill: Any other thoughts that you have about fire, firefighting, being married to a firefighter?

Whitaker: I think it's a lifestyle that may not be for everybody, but for those years, it worked out great for us. The money can be good, depending. And I was driving the bookmobile, and like I say, we were both kind of going our own ways, but there came a time when we had to become a little more responsible. And besides, John told me at one point he was just too damned old to dig line.

Underhill: And why do you think he continues to be associated with Forest Service work?

Whitaker: There were a couple of years we said, "I'm sick of it, I've had it," but I think it's like the old fire horse in the barn kind of thing. There's an excitement to it that he missed. He was able to be in a position where he wasn't digging line, he was doing some other things. But I think there is still some excitement to it.

Holcomb: thank you very much.

Whitaker: You're welcome!

Underhill: We appreciate your time. (tape turned off and on)

Holcomb: Okay, we're resuming the interview now to discuss smoke and air pollution from recent fires.

Whitaker: One of the things that I thought I might mention as far as the impact of the forest fires in the library is so many people were forced to leave their homes in the White Mountain area last week, and we noticed a distinct increase in people using the library, and people checking their e-mail, and a lot of these people were from those areas. It was very interesting talking to them. It was a way for people to keep in touch. And I thought, "Well, that's interesting." If you were staying in a motel room in Flagstaff because you were forced from your home, I guess it makes sense to come to the library, because certainly if I were in that position, I would think I'd be wanting to be very careful about my money, and also, you'd want something to do, to pass the time. Of course you'd be worried to death, and what else could you do, other than watch daytime TV. And so we had a lot of those people from those communities in our libraries. And we have the same philosophy that Cline does, that we serve Northern Arizona -Northern and Central Arizona. And so we issues actually a lot of library cards to people from those communities, simply so they could have something to take with them for a while. And I mentioned this to Paul Helenberg [phonetic], who's with the Flagstaff Fire Department, and he thought that was very interesting. He said it's just amazing to him, because he is in contact with so many other agencies, how a community like Flagstaff can be affected by a fire that we're not directly involved in. But it really has had an effect on this community. And I think people were doing the best to help out. But it was certainly interesting to me to see the impact that happened to the public library.

Holcomb: Yeah, actually speaking of the smoke, I read in the paper the other day that they were setting up a shelter here for people who can't breath in smoke.

Whitaker: Right, because it's smoky here, but it's certainly nothing like it is in some of the eastern communities in Arizona. And so I also got e-mails from my constituents in Apache and Navajo Counties, and they had probably four libraries that were in danger when the fires first started. As far as I know, everybody's fine, but I was particularly concerned because Navajo and Apache Counties are so poor, and they struggle, just struggle with any sort of services they provide. I know that Clay Springs was one of the endangered communities, and they just got the money to build a new library. And I don't think they've started yet. I don't think they have, but it was a matter of getting matching funds from the community. And this was very difficult for them, and they were so excited about this. And I thought, "Oh, gosh, this is so sad." But what the librarians were doing, and library staffs, in the libraries in those two counties, were going to the shelters and bring material to people to pass the time, and especially doing a lot of programming for children, because I think the kids were probably just bouncing off the walls. And if you just had an hour to get ready to evacuate, you might not be thinking about everything your kids might need to pass the time. And so that was certainly appreciated, and they jumped right in and did that.

Holcomb: I was going to ask if the libraries were doing any services for people who were evacuated.

Whitaker: They are. They're doing services, mostly for the children and for the elderly, apparently. They all just jumped right in and did what they can.

Holcomb: I can imagine that's a great help when you're just waiting all day.

Whitaker: Oh, absolutely. And how could you not be thinking about what's happening to your house. And so they were doing their best to help that way -and I knew they would.

Underhill: Thanks for that addition.

Whitaker: Oh, you're welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]