Melissa Bardsley Interview
| Hear interview excerpts: | Biographical data |
This is July 16, 2001. I'm [Jennifer Kern] here in the home of Melissa Bardsley. Today is the sixteenth. This is an interview, part of the Cline Library's Special Collections and Archives project entitled "Fire on the Plateau." We're going to be speaking with Melissa about her experiences with fire and timber marking.
Kern: Let me just ask you, could you give us a little background about where you were born and what brought you to Flagstaff, this area?
Bardsley: I was born in New York. I was born at West Point Military Academy. (electronic interference obscures comment) Then he was raised in Arizona. So my parents decided to retire in Arizona, so they picked Flagstaff. So I came to Flagstaff when I was twelve years old, and I've been here for thirty years. That makes me forty-two. (laughs)
Kern: Did you go to school here, to undergraduate school?
Bardsley: I went to NAU, yes.
Kern: And what did you study?
Bardsley: I studied sociology and social work. And then I went back later and studied education.
Kern: And that's what you do now?
Bardsley: I'm a teacher.
Kern: How many years have you been teaching?
Bardsley: I've been teaching for eleven years.
Kern: So before the teaching, you were involved with firefighting?
Bardsley: Yes.
Kern: Could you maybe walk us through your beginnings in the career, and then kind of lead us up to when you were actually out on the line?
Bardsley: Okay. I started in—I was looking for my paper—I started in '81, doing timber marking. And I did that for six months in Eastern Arizona. And then I believe in '83 I worked for the Forest Service as a receptionist in Happy Jack, which is close to Flagstaff. And then—oh boy, I'm losing track. Can you hand me that paper over there?
Kern: Sure. Why don't you tell us a little bit about timber marking? We haven't spoken to anyone about this.
Bardsley: Timber marking: when you timber mark you use what they call silviculture. That's one of the terms they use in forestry. I guess that's what forestry is all about, is silviculture. I don't know exactly what the definition of that is, but it's the science of—probably the science of taking care of the trees, deciding how they'll grow and how they'll be cut and all that. So they took us through quite a bit of training in silviculture, so that we could measure the width of trees, the height of trees, and we could grade trees to decide what quality lumber we were marking. So that was a really good experience as far as learning all about trees, as far as the quality of trees.
And then after we had the training, then we actually went out and started marking. And what we would do is, we would go out in a line. I think I might have started out with six or seven people, and we would spread out—oh, gosh, I can't remember how many feet apart we were—probably about fifty feet apart. And we would look at a map and figure out which direction we were heading for, and we would probably walk about ten miles a day. We would make sure we covered our area, and we could tell, we'd cover up to where the next person was, because we could see their marks. So we could tell if any trees were left untouched. And what we'd mostly do is go up to groups of trees and decide which ones needed to be thinned out of that group of trees—or which ones would actually be marked to use for them to cut down for lumber.
Kern: What was the grading process like? You mentioned you measured the height, the width, and then graded it.
Bardsley: You would look at the tree and—gosh, it's hard for me to remember now—but we'd look at the knots in the tree, depending on how many knots the tree had. (aside to child) If the tree had a lot of knots, then it would be like…what was it…a Grade 5, I think it was. So the less amount of knots in a tree, the better quality the wood would be.
Kern: So what's even a knot? What's a knot? Could you explain that?
Bardsley: Well, a knot sticks out of the tree, you can see it. And it's where the branches come off of the tree. Those are knots.
Kern: And so you did that?
Bardsley: Okay, so the boards get measured in sixteen-foot boards for lumber. So you look at the tree and eyeball it up to sixteen feet. And if you have a tall tree with hardly any branches down in the first sixteen feet, if they start up higher—and pine trees, you know, you don't have very many branches down at the bottom of the tree. I can't remember how many knots you look for, but if you had very few knots, then you're going to have a higher quality of lumber.
Kern: And so what was the color marking at that point?
Bardsley: And then you have other pine trees where the branches start way down low on the tree, and maybe they don't even grow to be as tall either.
What was that?
Kern: The color markings. Were you marking in certain colors still? Like was blue....
Bardsley: Yeah, blue is what we used for lumber. So you would mark the trees that were to be cut. And then depending on the prescription for the area, each sale area that you would go into had a different prescription written for it. And you would have to follow that prescription. So you'd have to sit down and everybody would have to talk about exactly what was expected, what was the prescription for that area before you went in to mark. Each prescription would require a certain amount of trees to be marked. And I can't remember how that worked, but you might have an area where you had to mark a very high percentage of trees. And then you'd have another area where you'd mark a very small percentage of trees. So you would have to keep that into consideration when you went in and looked at a group of trees—you know, how many you should mark in each group, depending on how many there were.
Kern: And who wrote the prescription, do you know? I mean, not individuals, but was it the Forest?
Bardsley: I think the silviculturalists on the district that worked in the Forestry Department would write the prescription based on whatever was handed down to them.
Kern: And so you did that for a summer, and you enjoyed that?
Bardsley: And then they'd decide, they'd make a map of the area. I know they did a lot of mapping. They'd make a map of the area that you'd go out into, and they'd come and look at it ahead of time.
Kern: Was that crew a mixed crew, or was it mostly men at that point, doing that, marking?
Bardsley: I think I was the only woman. That was in the summer of '81 when I did that.
Kern: And then that next summer?
Bardsley: And that was fine, it was a good group. I think the thing that really made it good was that my supervisor was fantastic. He's a really good teacher, and he was a very good person, and he treated everybody equally, and he was just really good to work for.
Kern: What drew you to Flag for that, after?
Bardsley: Because when I was in my twenties, I always felt like whatever a man could do physically, I could also do. At that point in my life when I was young, I had that attitude.
Kern: So you wanted to kind of join up into a career area that would primarily consist of men?
Bardsley: No. No, at that point I really didn't know what my career was going to be ultimately, but I wanted to experience different kinds of jobs. I wanted to go out and see if I could do a physical kind of job as well as a man could.
Kern: And you really enjoyed that one?
Bardsley: I did, uh-huh.
Kern: Did you say you had done that for two years?
Bardsley: No, I did that for six months.
Kern: For two seasons?
Bardsley: Yes, and then I did it again in the summer of '90. So I did it about nine years later again, here in Flagstaff.
Kern: Oh, here in the city?
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: And how was that? Was that similar?
Bardsley: It was okay, but it wasn't near the experience that I had over there. There wasn't as much actual timber marking going on. We did a little bit of thinning—marking for thinning, versus marking for lumber. And I hadn't done any thinning marking before, so that wasn't real fascinating. So I guess there was a lot of thinning going on at the time, and there wasn't too much action in the lumber industry at the time—not too much movement going on at the time.
Kern: Did you get a different training for thinning marking? Did you get training for that year?
Bardsley: I don't remember much training, actually. And also, I did experience, I had a couple of fires. We got called on a couple of fires, because we weren't too terribly busy. So I think we went to a couple of campfires that had gotten out of hand, so that was my first experience with that.
Kern: And had you training for that, then—some basic firefighting training?
Bardsley: (pause) I may have had a little bit.
Kern: But they just sent your crew out with an engine and gear and said "go for it"?
Bardsley: No, we just had some basic tools on our truck, so they sent us out. Then I gather, I think a tanker truck came out right after we did, and we assisted with them, used their water and their hoses.
Kern: Did you have at least the Nomex to protect your clothing?
Bardsley: That's a good question. (laughs)
Kern: Do you recall wearing a hat? Any sort of —
Bardsley: Yeah, we would have had all that. But I can't remember.... You know, I think that that was always carried. I think that was carried on all the trucks.
Kern: So can you tell us about maybe the first time you went on a fire, if you can remember?
Bardsley: Like I said, it was a campfire. It wasn't too intense or anything like that. It was kind of exciting, because it was a low-key deal. Basically just a matter of using the shovel and getting it under control. I mean, if I remember right, it had just come out of the ring. It really wasn't a big deal.
Kern: And how many folks were there?
Bardsley: Oh, boy. On the timber-marking crew?
Kern: Or the crew that accompanied you the first time on the fire.
Bardsley: I don't remember, no. There may have been one other tanker there that came.
Kern: So do you have other experiences in fighting fire?
Bardsley: Then I was hired to be on a Model 71. And that was in about, I guess probably the summer of '88. That was my main experience with firefighting as a job. A Model 71 is not your regular tanker truck—it's one of the bigger ones, so it has more hoses, more water. They have more of the smaller trucks, and then they have maybe one or two Model 71's—or that's how it used to be. So it requires a lot of upper body strength, as far as throwing the hose up on the top of the truck. And at that point in my life, I really didn't have much upper body strength at all. Most of my strength always was in my legs. So I had a real hard time with that.
Kern: How did you get to applying to that job?
Bardsley: Well actually, I applied for timber marking, and they didn't have anything. So they offered me that job.
Kern: So when you knew that would be kind of a more dangerous—I would imagine a more dangerous position, more dangerous summer—how did you feel? Did you debate whether or not to take it for a while?
Bardsley: (pause) I can't remember if that was.... I'm sure I.... Going into it, I really didn't know what to expect, since I hadn't worked that job before. But I figured it really couldn't be that bad. (laughs)
Kern: Did you have to have a physical fitness test before you went?
Bardsley: Oh, yes. Yes, I did. And I know you had to run a mile in a certain amount of time, or you had to do the step test where you step up and down off of a wood step. And the wood step for the women was lower than the wood step for the men. I didn't have any problem with that.
Kern: Would you do that in front of the whole squad of people? Or was it inside, just you and someone else?
Bardsley: Yeah, I think it was just one other person doing it—the supervisor.
Kern: So you passed that, and then did you have an interview with the supervisor?
Bardsley: No. No, I don't believe they interview for those jobs. They just get your name off of a list and call you up and offer you a job.
Kern: And at that point, that was '88? What year was that, that you did that engine?
Bardsley: Uh-huh, '87. I think I told you '88. Yeah, it was—it was '88.
Kern: So when you went, I guess the first day, training the first day, were there other women there? Were you expecting to see other ladies, or was it just....
Bardsley: Trying to remember what her name was. I think her name was Debbie. I don't remember. I don't know if she's still working for the Forest Service. But she liked it, and she'd been doing it, I think that might have been her third season. She was the other female on the crew. I remember she did have upper body strength. She could do pull-ups and push-ups.
Kern: So did you start training? Or did you start working your upper body once you were hired on?
Bardsley: Not really. (chuckles)
Kern: Did you have morning P.T.?
Bardsley: I do that now. (chuckles) But that doesn't do me much good now—for that anyway.
Kern: Did you have physical training every morning?
Bardsley: No, we didn't.
Kern: You didn't?!
Bardsley: No.
Kern: Nothing like that?
Bardsley: No. You would think you would, for a job like that.
Kern: Yeah, I know now they do about an hour, at least the crews that we've been visiting.
Bardsley: Oh, do they?
Kern: Or so—at least with the crews that we've been visiting. So tell us about your typical day on the engine.
Bardsley: (sigh) We did a lot of exercises. I don't know what you would call them—maneuver exercises, I don't know what they were. But we did a lot of exercises where we would take the truck out to the meadow. We were located at Mormon Lake guard station. So there was a meadow right there. They would take the truck out and park it out in the middle of the meadow, and then do like timed exercises: to run out, grab the hose.... Oh, only the supervisor, or the foreman of the truck—I don't know what his position was—but he was the only one that was to operate the technical, the pumps that are on the side of the truck. You know, you open up the compartment on the side, and you have all these different controls for the pumps and the valves. He was the only one that operated those. That was his job. I mean, he also did firefighting, but basically he was there to make sure that all that was done properly, because he had to open and close all the valves to let the water through.
So that's what we would do, is we would go out and practice running out there, grabbing the hose, bringing it down, and then he would give orders as to what you needed to grab, what you needed to be doing—basically pretending that you're on a fire.
Kern: How many people were on a crew, total, on that engine crew?
Bardsley: Oh, boy, I'm think there was probably like five. It was a double cab, so I think there was probably two in the front and three in the back.
Kern: So you, and the supervisor, and someone else, and two other people.
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: How was that in terms of being a female and having your male supervisors? Did you feel that you were treated equally?
Bardsley: Well, I don't know if it was because I was new at doing this particular job. I kind of felt like maybe it had something to do with that, because the other female had—like I said, this was, I believe, her third season—and she had probably sort of already proved herself. I think all the other people that were on that crew had also—they had also already been there. So I think I was the only one that had never done this before, this particular job. So I felt like they were watching me, and I was supposed to prove myself to these people.
Kern: What kind of orders were given? You know, how were you addressed if you're out doing a maneuver, pull the hose or…how were you spoken to?
Bardsley: I don't really remember that. I just remember that I just didn't feel comfortable, and I didn't feel like I was given really the proper training, or really the chance to.... Oh gosh, it just wasn't comfortable. And like I said, I think part of that was because I hadn't done it before, and I think the other part was because I was a woman. I just think that they just really didn't think that I could do it or succeed at it.
Kern: Did you think that you could to it at that point, physically?
Bardsley: Well, like I said, the part that I had a hard time with was the lifting. As far as tolerating the smoke, I did that okay. That's one thing about firefighting, too, that I don't think is not something that I like. It's really hard when you're in a fire to breathe all that smoke. It's very hard.
Kern: Did they issue you masks? Because I know that there are masks that you could wear, but we've never seen anybody use them.
Bardsley: I don't remember that. They may have had them. I know most people used bandannas. (aside to child) And so that's what I did, I used a bandanna, for the smoke and the sweat. (aside to child)
Kern: So can you tell us about the first big fire that you were called out to?
Bardsley: I can't remember how big it was, but it was a pretty good-sized fire. It was a local fire. I really don't know if the crew got called out to any fires outside of Flagstaff that year or not. I do know that they like to keep the Model 71 in town, and that they were more likely to send the smaller trucks out on those fires, or those crews out, and keep the Model 71 in town. That was not a bad experience, actually. (aside to child) Actually being on that fire was not a bad experience, because I was pretty much left to do my job. I was on a line, digging line, and basically that's what I was doing. (aside to child) And it was okay. I was pretty tired when it was over with. (aside to child)
Kern: Do you remember how many days that fire was, or how many days you were out?
Bardsley: It was just a day.
Kern: How long?
Bardsley: I think it was a long day, and it was, I think, all evening. We were out there for quite a while.
Kern: Was it just your Model 71 crew?
Bardsley: No. No, there were quite a few people out there, but I don't remember how many crews were there. And like I said, I can't remember how big the fire was, either.
Kern: So when you came back, I'd say, the next day, was there kind of like a "right of passage" feeling amongst the crew, with the supervisor, that, "okay, you did your first fire, you did a good job"?
Bardsley: I think, as I remember, I think that I was told that I did a good job. So that was positive. But once I was back, just being with the crew, sort of living with them on a day-to-day basis, I just really didn't enjoy it.
Kern: Was it a regular (unclear, obscured by child) nine-to-five situation, or how many hours a day were you working more or less?
Bardsley: I think it was. I think it was eight hours a day, with two days off, maybe in the middle of the week.
Kern: And so were there a lot of fire activities when '88 was the big (unclear) fires? I'm wondering if a lot of the local hotshots would have been called out. Did you see a lot of fires that year, that summer?
Bardsley: See, I think I remember that now, but like I said, we had to stay behind. So (chuckles) maybe that could have been some of it. Maybe the people I worked with were very frustrated because they didn't get to go. Maybe they were grumpy. (chuckles) But I guess I just basically didn't think firefighting was my thing. There were too many aspects about the job that I didn't like. Another thing about it, is that it's all the excitement and all the rush, and then the rest of the time is basically down time—like it would be in any firefighting situation. So if you liked that, if you liked the adrenaline rush and the stress all at one time, and then nothing, then it might be okay—but I didn't like that.
Kern: What were some of the other aspects that you didn't like, or feel comfortable with?
Bardsley: Well, in this particular situation, I didn't like working with basically mostly all men. I felt like the other woman was trying to impress the men as much as she possibly could, and that really bothered me.
Kern: What kind of things would she do?
Bardsley: Like kissing up to them. She just seemed like she would do anything to impress them, instead of just being her own person on her own merits. It's hard to explain.
Kern: So what was it like then, to be day-in, day-out sitting around with a bunch of guys who....
Bardsley: Not real pleasant. One thing that they did that I thought was pretty crass—whenever we'd be sitting in the truck, a lot of them, it was a real typical thing for these guys to chew tobacco. And I believe even that female on the truck tried chewing tobacco too, and I thought, "Gee!" I mean, I know some females do that, but typically it's not something women usually do. We would be sitting in the back of the truck, and they would chew their tobacco, and they wouldn't roll the window down and spit it out the window—they would spit it on the floor right next to me. And I thought they were definitely doing that to offend me. Now, maybe they weren't, but that was one of the things I thought they were doing on purpose just to make me mad.
Kern: Did you say something like, "There's the window."
Bardsley: [I would say] "[I]... cannot believe you guys are spitting on the floor!" And I would just sort of turn my head and, you know.
Kern: And would they answer back to you with that kind of element amongst everyone of little play aggression?
Bardsley: I don't know. Basically, I think it was kind of like, "Well, you know, you're the new kid on the block, so if you don't like it, too bad." And maybe some of the stuff they were doing is basically what they would do to any new person. Maybe it was sort of the right of passage that they would do to you whether you were male or female. You know, maybe they figured, "Okay, you want to be one of the guys? We're going to treat you like one of the guys." Me, not being a male, I don't know how guys treat each other (chuckles) when they're doing that.
Kern: So they were spitting like at you, not at their feet? I'm thinking they were spitting down, they would be spitting toward you—at you almost.
Bardsley: Well, on the floor.
Kern: At the floor near you?
Bardsley: Yeah.
Kern: Okay, I see it a little bit more clearly. For some reason I didn't understand what you were saying. So did you ever—I just would think to myself I would probably say... I don't know, I think I would get a little frustrated, and that would come out. Did that ever happen to you in those situations, where you had to confront them?
Bardsley: Well, I basically just wanted to get away from them. (laughs) And I wanted the trip to go by quickly so I could get out of the truck.
Kern: So would you remain kind of more quiet in those types of situations?
Bardsley: Uh-huh. Yes, I did.
Kern: Just let you be at bay, or would that egg them on maybe, sometimes.
Bardsley: I don't really know. Probably egg them on.
Kern: Did it ever get to a point in some situation like that where you went to a supervisor?
Bardsley: Well, no, I just got towards the middle of the season, that's when I went to the supervisor and I said, "You know, I really think that I'm going to call it quits." I didn't work through the whole season—I left and just told him another aspect would be a better match for me. And I can't remember what I told him now, but I remember I did tell him quite a bit about how I felt, and how I felt like I was treated.
Kern: Did he take that down in a document?
Bardsley: I don't know if he did or not. I think maybe he did.
Kern: So it wasn't the physical demands that moved you to want to leave?
Bardsley: Well, that was part of it.
Kern: Just the stress of, like you were saying, the upper body, the moving the hose?
Bardsley: Throwing it up on top of the truck, or maybe getting it down.
Kern: If you wouldn't reach it, there wouldn't be a way for someone else to take that position, and you maybe work out?
Bardsley: Well, yeah, basically that's what they were doing. But I think (aside to child) basically it was probably the treatment and maybe the way that they ran things. It just wasn't—I just didn't enjoy the job, the situation.
Kern: Was there kind of, at least, a friendly atmosphere, like you'd walk in in the morning and say, "Good morning."
Bardsley: No.
Kern: No…
Bardsley: Unt-uh.
Kern: And the ones who had a couple of years' experience? Were they friendly amongst themselves?
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: So half season you changed, and then where did you go for the other half of the season?
Bardsley: I didn't work for the Forest Service. I don't think I worked that last month. I think I just took some time off. And then I started teaching after that.
Kern: Did you ever have any thoughts (unclear, obscured by child) couple of seasons after that, right?
Bardsley: Well, see, now I'm confused, because I can't remember if that was after or before I timber marked.
Kern: You said in '91 you went back.
Bardsley: Yes, I did. Okay, I did go back and do that after.
Kern: If they had offered you another....
Bardsley: It was the same district that offered me the timber marking job later that I took.
Kern: Would you have taken another engine position if that was what was available?
Bardsley: Oh, you mean the next time I came back? No.
Kern: Yeah, say in '91 they said, "There's no timber marking."
Bardsley: No, I had decided that I didn't want to do that again.
Kern: How were your family's reactions about all—when you said, "I'm going to work on the engine, and I can't do timber"? Did anyone say, "Hey, this is too dangerous"?
Bardsley: No, I don't think so. I think my family members, like my parents—I wasn't married at the time—thought that was great—great opportunity. (aside to child)
Kern: They did?
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: And so how did it go when you were telling them—you know, into the first week or two—"This is not what I thought it would be," or "I'm not feeling good about it"? Were they encouraging of you to leave?
Bardsley: I'm sure. They probably just encouraged me to do whatever it was I wanted to do. That's basically how my family's always been. They've never tried to talk me into anything one way or the other.
Kern: Was it a big debate in your mind to stay or go—go back to the engine?
Bardsley: No.
Kern: Or did you get to a certain threshold where you said.... Was there any event that was kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back?
Bardsley: I don't know if there was. No, actually, yeah, now that I think about it, there was—but it wasn't on the job, it was at a party. They had a party out there, and I remember people were drinking quite a bit. I can't remember now what it was, but it was something that that other woman said, and I got into an argument with her. I can't remember what it was, but I think I basically told her that I thought she was really trying to impress these men. So we kind of got into it. Gosh, I can't remember now. I just remember we had a pretty good argument, and it was after that, that I decided to leave.
Kern: What was her opinion about what you were insinuating?
Bardsley: I can't remember now—it's been too long. It's been, what? ten years. No, it's been more than ten years. See, I'd have to really think on that to see what the argument was. (aside to child)
Kern: So when you went back the next couple of days, were you speaking, the two of you, or that was kind of it?
Bardsley: No, we weren't.
Kern: That would make a small engine crew a little uncomfortable.
Bardsley: And I remember that that was part of—I think that was part of the conversation I had with him, with the supervisor. I don't know, maybe.... I can't remember if he had some involvement with the argument, or not. But I remember bringing that up to him, when I spoke with him.
Kern: What was his reaction when you said, "I think it's time...." (unclear, electronic interference)
Bardsley: I think he tried to make it okay, and I think he tried to apologize.
Kern: When you say "he tried to make it okay...."
Bardsley: He apologized, I remember that.
Kern: Did you accept that at the time?
Bardsley: I think I did, but I think I told him that I just didn't feel comfortable.
Kern: So did you have goodbyes to say to anyone else, or did you just clear out and that was that?
Bardsley: I don't remember if I worked so many days. I'm sure I worked for many days and I'm sure I gave some kind of notice. But I don't know if there was really anybody that I wanted to say goodbye to. (laughs)
Kern: Do you know of any other friends of yours, male or female, who were firefighters at the time?
Bardsley: Yeah, but not there.
Kern: Did they have any words of advice to give to you? (no audible response) Then you went into teaching?
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: And did you ever look back and think, "That's something I should have not done at all"?
Bardsley: No. No, I'm glad that I had that experience—just another experience, just to know what it's like. And I think it's good to know what it's like for the people out there that are doing it. Because if you were on one of those really big fires, like Yellowstone or back in the seventies, what was it? In California, the Marble Comb [phonetic] Fire. How big was that? Something like 149,000 acres or something, in the rugged mountains of California. And my ex-husband did fight that fire, only he's pretty tough—he still is. And I remember him calling me and just being exhausted, totally exhausted, and I was really worried about him. And I know that sometimes people do die in those fires. I think I just read an article about some people that just died in a fire somewhere.
Kern: Yeah, last week, four. Three rookies and one....
Bardsley: Where was that?
Kern: That was in Washington, I guess near the Cascade Mountains, twenty or thirty miles by there.
Bardsley: Yeah. So, you know, they really work in some rugged country, really. It's just so hot and smokey. I mean, you breathe in all that smoke while you're fighting the fire. So people have problems, getting sent off to the hospital just from breathing in all the smoke, let alone exhaustion. Getting caught in the fire.
Kern: Did your ex-husband have any accidents?
Bardsley: He got hit by slurry one time, and it knocked him down. That's the only thing I remember. But I remember that was not a good experience, getting hit by a big bomb of slurry. (pause) But he liked it.
Kern: Would he be gone then?
Bardsley: I think as he got a little bit older, I think he sort of kind of laid off on the fire scene.
Kern: In terms of what?
Bardsley: I mean, I don't know if he still does that now. I think he decided—as he got older—decided that he really didn't want to keep that up.
Kern: So would he be away, for a typical season firefighter, would he be gone?
Bardsley: Well, when he was on that one large fire, I think he was gone about a month. But he wasn't a hotshot, he was on a regular tanker crew in town and got sent away. That was the longest he was ever gone.
(unclear, maybe to child)
Kern: Do you have some questions you want to ask?
Garcia Hunt: (unclear, too far from mic)
Kern: (unclear) some more. How would you react if your daughter, twelve years from now, said, "Hey, I want to make some extra money one season. I want to go into firefighting."
Bardsley: So be it, "Try it out, see what you think." I think we all have to experiment, try things out and see what we think (chuckles), whether it's beading or firefighting, or training dogs.
Kern: What advice would you give to a new eighteen-year-old, female firefighter these days?
Bardsley: Well, I would say you need to have a lot of endurance. And I don't think I really had a problem with that aspect of it. You need to have the upper body strength. You've got to have the muscle tone, and stamina. I think you have to have a really good self image, and just do the best job you can for yourself and for the team that you're working with; but expect that because you're working with a lot of males, that you're going to have to put up.... I mean, certain things are probably going to happen. I don't know really now what it's like. I just personally wouldn't feel comfortable, I think, working in an occupation like that—kind of a laborer kind of position, with a bunch of men.
Kern: Why not?
Bardsley: Because I think that there's just—you know, you get men and women together, and I think you're just.... I mean, I know there's a lot of laws now against sexual harassment in the workplace and all that, but.... I think unless it were more evenly distributed, I think if you have mostly all males and a few females, I think you're going to have problems. I could be wrong. Like I said, I think it has a lot to do with who your supervisor is, too, and what your supervisor is going to demand of the people that are working for him or her—what they're willing to put up with.
Kern: The supervisor that you worked under, how would you describe his....
Bardsley: I think he was kind of a spineless kind of guy. I don't know. I just don't think he was much of a supervisor. I just don't think he really was organized enough. I don't think he had a really thought-out schedule of how the day was going to be. Too much down time. I just don't think he was very good at what he was doing.
Kern: So aside from the training out in the field that you had mentioned, during down time what would everyone be doing?
Bardsley: Some of them might be doing some exercises or sitting around shootin' the shit, I guess. (chuckles) I mean, he'd say, "Okay, let's get up and do this," but I just don't think—there wasn't enough of a schedule. The time wasn't taken up with certain things. It was just sort of maybe we're doin' somethin', maybe we're not. Which I don't do real well with. You know, I figure if I'm going to do a job, I want to have some—really do a job, and know what's expected of me, what I should be doing. That's one thing I do remember, is that we were just sort of sitting around. I wasn't really sure what it was I was supposed to be doing.
Kern: So there weren't a lot of thinning projects that you guys would be on? It seemed as if, when the engine crews are not....
Bardsley: There was a little bit going on, like we did do some burning, did a little bit of burning. We may have done a little bit of marking. I think it was mostly burning. A little bit of patrolling. But it wasn't all the time. A little too laid back, I'd say.
Kern: Was it just your engine crew in that one physical area, or were there other crews?
Bardsley: I think we were the only crew there, yeah. And everybody basically stayed there until their days off.
Kern: Oh, you lived out there, you mean?
Bardsley: Basically. Well almost most of the people. I didn't. And I think one reason I didn't is because I didn't feel comfortable staying out there.
Kern: So there were dormitories and a cafeteria or something like that?
Bardsley: No. I think you had to bring your own food. There was a kitchen, you had to bring your own food and prepare your own food. Not dormitories, but different rooms, and like maybe a main room where they had bunks, and some separate rooms.
Kern: So there were five people—five or six?
Bardsley: I think so.
Kern: And most of them stayed out there.
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: And you would be in close enough distance to commute?
Bardsley: Uh-huh.
Kern: Do you think that was part of the blending aspect of the job?
Bardsley: I don't know.
Kern: I want to ask you a few questions about....
Bardsley: Because I think some of them, I think they kind of came and sometimes they went in, sometimes they stayed. It was kind of like that.
Kern: And this was Mormon Lake?
Bardsley: Mormon Lake, because it's only twenty-some miles from Flagstaff.
Kern: I wanted to ask you about a little different subject, about your opinion of local prescribed burnings and thinings—just by looking around. It seems like you're very close up here with the forest, lots of trees here. Are you in favor of thinning projects, prescribed burns?
Bardsley: Yeah, I think a certain amount of thinning is fine. But sometimes I think they go overboard with it. I know that if you don't do a certain amount of thinning that you can have a real disaster on your hands if you get a fire. So I think, as far as protecting the forest and the communities around it, it is important. I don't know, what I've seen them doing up on Mount Elden or the base of Mount Elden just recently, is a little much for my taste.
Kern: Too much?
Bardsley: Yeah, uh-huh. It's starting to look sparse.
Kern: And do you think they're doing that for economic gain, or just reckless?
Bardsley: I don't know why they're doing it. I think it depends, too, on who they have doing it. I think if they contract it out to a company, that they're going to tend to cut more trees than they're supposed to. And I don't know how well they monitor how much they're cutting. And I have a feeling that they probably don't monitor them real well. I have a feeling that they probably—you know, they get the job because maybe they're the lowest bidder, and then they get the job and they go in there and do it according to the prescription that they give them, but that they don't quite stay within the guidelines. That's what I suspect.
Kern: What do you think would be a better way for a project like that to get off the ground, but not....
Bardsley: Well, then too, if they're going to go in and they're going to thin, and they're not going to clean it up, and they're going to leave everything scattered around, and not burn the piles, then there isn't any point in thinning in the first place, because then you have just as much of a fire danger as you had before.
Kern: Have you seen prescribed burns in your area?
Bardsley: I did see one out on the corner of Townsend-Winona Road and [Highway] 89, that you can see when you go back into town. I did see them burning out there this last week. I just noticed them burning. But I haven't seen the end product of it. So I haven't been going around, looking to see what the result is anywhere else besides the base of Mount Elden, so I don't know. But if that's an indicator of what they're doing, it looks like too much to me.
Kern: What's fire insurance like in an area like this? I would think that [things?] touching up against the roof, that you might not.... Do you have high insurance?
Bardsley: No.
Kern: Not any higher than other places you've lived?
Bardsley: Well, this is the only house I've ever owned, so I wouldn't be able to compare. So I don't know. I don't know how it would compare to an area that doesn't have trees.
Kern: Do you feel a sense of fear, ever, in terms of a fire reaching this area?
Bardsley: No. Never have. And I've seen burns. I think I just saw one a couple of days ago—I saw a burn start. No, I guess if that happened, I guess if a fire started, I could tell if it was starting to come toward my house. I guess I'd get my children and my animals and take off, and that would be the end of that. As long as my house is insured. (laughter)
Kern: (unclear) Well, I think that was.... I asked you about your training. I thought that was really good. Robert, do you have anything else?
Garcia Hunt: No.
Kern: Great.
[END OF INTERVIEW]