FLAGSTAFF PUBLIC LIBRARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Elsie Pyland
Interview number NAU.OH.28.77

Mrs. Elsie Pyland, who came to Flagstaff with her husband, Joe Pyland in 1924 from Louisiana with the Cady Lumber Company. Husband owned bar called “Joe’s Place.” Interview conducted by Kristine Prennace on July 28, 1976. Transcribed by Jardee Transcription, February 2000.

Outline of Subjects Covered in Taped Interview

Tape 1, Side 1

Born in Missouri, 1899

Parents

James Brooks, Missouri

Martha McKinney, Kentucky

Father’s occupation

Farmer

Brothers and sisters

Mrs. Jesse Geitz, Mrs. Artie Autrey, J.W. Brooks, Sedona

Came to Flagstaff in 1924 with Cady Lumber Company

Letter about the ownership of the mill

McNary mill built by Pollock in 1919

Cady and McNary owned Flagstaff mill

Came by train to Flagstaff

Husband’s jobs with the mill

Lath mill foreman

Bringing in black population to work mill

Feeling of the community toward the Louisiana workers

Company housing

Highland Park

Children

Martha L. Mulnix

Schooling at Emerson and Flagstaff High School

Southside of Flagstaff, described

Brannen School

Shopped at Babbitts

Downtown area described, briefly

Pine Hotel

Neighbors

Gordons, Gordon Steel Company

Burris, box factory

Ryans

Cady’s ecomonic situation with mill

Social life of the community

Cost of living high

Concerts at the college

Women’s club

Churches, Federated Church

Banderhoff’s Baptist Church, 1926

Seventh Day Adventist Church

Prohibition

Didn’t drink

Depression

Work continued in mills

World War II and Navajo Ordnance Depot

Tourism

Summer residences

Fires

Other jobs held by husband

Deputy sheriff, AL & T mill

Tape 1, Side 2

Other jobs, continued

Deputy sheriff

County jail building

Owned "Joe’s Place"

Sold to Raymond Smith after husband’s death

History of name of the bar

Flooding

Water supply

Building of water reservoir

Big snows, 1929-30

Had baby on January 16, 1930, trouble getting to hospital

1936 snow

Epidemics

Native Americans

Fourth of July celebration in 1926

East Flagstaff

Fox farm

Greenlaw home and tourist cabins

Oak Creek Canyon, 1926

Lolomi Lodge

Simpson swimming pool

Winslow

La Posada restaurant

Williams

Harvey House at Ash Fork

Sawmill

Residences in town

This is an interview with Mrs. Elsie Pyland who came to Flagstaff in 1924 with the Cady Lumber Company from Louisiana. The interview is being conducted on July 28, 1976, at Mrs. Pyland's home which is located at 2600 East Fourth Avenue in Flagstaff, by Kristine Prennace representing the Flagstaff City-Coconino County Public Library.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Mrs. Pyland when and where were you born?

ELSIE PYLAND: In Dunnegan, Missouri, [in 1899].

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Who were your parents?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, Martha and James Brooks.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: What was your mother's maiden name?

ELSIE PYLAND: McKinney.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Were they from Missouri originally?

ELSIE PYLAND: My father was. My mother's family came from Kentucky, over to Missouri.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: What type of work did your father do?

ELSIE PYLAND: He was a farmer.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Good hard work. So you were raised most of the time in Missouri?

ELSIE PYLAND: Until I was twenty years old, I lived there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So you had all your schooling and everything? Did you have brothers and sisters?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Why don't we go ahead and get their names in case your relatives should be listening to the tape sometime.

ELSIE PYLAND: Of course the two older ones have died, and I have a sister in St. Louis, living, Mrs. Jesse Geitz; and Artie Autrey in Superior, Wisconsin; and then a younger brother in Sedona, J.W. Brooks.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So he's out here too?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, he's been here quite a while. He's retired now, living in Sedona.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Okay, so when did you come to Flagstaff?

ELSIE PYLAND: In 1924, March of 1924.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Why did you come to this area?

ELSIE PYLAND: My husband was working for a sawmill in McNary, Louisiana, and when they cut out, had no more timber, Mr. Cady had already bought this sawmill here and one over at Cooley, Arizona. They renamed it McNary. There were LOTS of we families came, but not too many stayed. They were homesick and left, but a few of we families stayed, and worked at the sawmill.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So you met your husband....

ELSIE PYLAND: In McNary, Louisiana. He was married to my brother's sister.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, uh-huh. So was there a man named McNary?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Did you ever talk with Mrs. Ryan?

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, I've been trying to get ahold of her.

ELSIE PYLAND: (moves away from microphone) I had a letter here awhile ago, about the sawmill purchase. See, Mr. and Mrs. Ryan were already living here, and living over at THIS mill. (moves back to microphone) It was then the Cady Lumber Company. And she said after she talked with you, that Mr. Dolan owned both of these mills. But I never did hear of that, that Mr. Dolan owned them. Mr. McNary - I don't know just where he came into the picture. You know, from Missouri, I didn't know much about the sawmills. But here's a letter that a man wrote to my husband February 20, 1961. Evidently my husband had sent him some clippings about all this sawmill purchase and when we all came here. And this Mr. Addy [phonetic spelling] didn't agree with it, because.... May I read it to you?

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh sure! Yes.

ELSIE PYLAND: He says, "Thanks for the clippings enclosed. Yes, the article about the lumber industry in Arizona is not exactly correct in several details." I still don't know what it was my husband sent him, you see. "As is frequently the case, the reporter or newsman gets dates mixed and so forth. The plant at Cooley, now McNary, was originally built by a man by the name of Pollock and in the year of 1919. Pollock was a cattleman, also coal mine operator, and [had] other interests, including, I believe, banking. Anyway, [he] became overextended and with the depressed lumber market following the First World War, was soon in trouble with the lumber plant, more or less taken over by the banks, and who together with the Santa Fe, they had furnished the money to build the Apache Railroad, began looking for a buyer. The Santa Fe approached Mr. McNary, and from this [account?], Mr. Cady and Mr. McNary closed the deal in fall of 1923. We actually took the plant over on December 1, 1923, and then the Flagstaff deal quickly followed." So, now who this Mr. McNary - I know there was a Mr. McNary, but evidently he had owned the mill down at McNary, Louisiana, because THAT town was named McNary. But as it says here, when Mr. Cady and this Mr. McNary bought this mill over at Cooley, they changed the name to the town of McNary, and that was always a little confusing for awhile. I always had to stop and say, if I was talking about McNary, Arizona, or McNary, Louisiana.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, yeah, right, 'cause you knew the difference. Now, I'm sorry, did you stop at all in McNary, Arizona?

ELSIE PYLAND: No, we never did live there, we came directly here in the spring of 1924.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: How many workers did he bring with him? - Mr. Cady, I imagine.

ELSIE PYLAND: I don't know.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Well, did you each come in your own cars? Or did you travel by train?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, we came on the train. Some people drove, came in their cars. That was the day mostly of the Model "T's." And we had a car there, but my husband thought it wasn't up to making the drive.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, it was a long trip. Now, what kind of work did your husband do?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, at that time, he was the lath mill foreman in the mill. Before that, he had run a train for the lumber mill. Really, that was his.... Well, he started out as a young man working on the railroad. That was really what he wanted to do with his life's work. But he was hurt in a freight train accident and never could work for a big company any more. Now, for just a company like Mr. McNary's sawmill, he could do that. But what I mean, for the Santa Fe or the Southern Pacific and some of those, they wouldn't hire him anymore.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So he was foreman then when he....

ELSIE PYLAND: He was the lath mill foreman.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Lath mill?

ELSIE PYLAND: Lath mill, L-A-T-H, I think. It's the scraps of lumber that's made into lathes that are used for building houses. They, as I understood it, sort of hold the plaster - it's the foundation of a plastered wall, the laths were. They were small pieces, but they were really used in the "scrappy" lumber, because all the good lumber was made into - for houses, all kinds of buildings. But this scrappy lumber was never seen after the building was finished, the laths weren't.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Right. Now, did many black people come over with you?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, there were lots of them, because they knew the work and Mr. Cady knew THEM. Flagstaff didn't really appreciate it, and yet I never could understand why, because they really treated them all right. They just said that we didn't have any business bringing the black Southern people out here. Mr. Cady owned the mill, and it was really his privilege to hire who he wanted to hire.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So maybe there was some resentment over importing workers in, instead of using local.

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Now, my husband and I never thought of that. There was no work left down there, everybody was leaving. We were glad to have the job. We came along with all these people. But the Flagstaff people didn't appreciate it - they resented it. They just thought we had taken their jobs. And I didn't realize that for a while, but I soon began to find out.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did you seem to get the cold shoulder?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, we really did, for a long time. And there probably was 4,000 people in the city of Flagstaff then.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So it was a very small town. You could really feel it then, if there was any animosity.

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh. There were the two sawmills.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, the AL&T, owned by the Riordan’s?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, right.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah. That was the other one. So where did you live when you came to Flagstaff?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, the sawmill had houses over by the mill, and they had a commissary, and then one building, the office only, but they had quite a few dwellings. We lived near the mill, it was easy walking to the mill. My husband always came home for lunch.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That was nice. Do you know the Prochnows?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. It was on past that house, over what we called Highland Park. It was just a little area where the company had built these houses. There was, I guess, hardly a street, but anyway, we could drive right up to them. But there was no laid-out planned streets like in the city. It just all belonged to the mill, and they built the houses as they wanted to.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did you have any children when you moved here?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, I had two little girls when we came here. In the following summer, the oldest little girl was four, and the daughter who is still living was two that same summer that we came here. She's still living here.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Why don't we go ahead and get her name for the record.

ELSIE PYLAND: All right. She's Martha Mulnix now, Martha L. Mulnix.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Where did they go to school?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, my older little girl was killed that same year in a car wreck, we were with some other people. And Martha had all of her education here. She finished high school, and then went to college here.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was there a grammar school down by the mill anywhere?

ELSIE PYLAND: No, there wasn't. Emerson School was the closest.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did she have to walk?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Well, by that time we did have a car, and she wanted to walk, but a lot of the time I did take her to school because across the track, you know. Until she really got used to walking, we took her a great deal. But there were other children in the neighborhood, and they'd all walk together to Emerson.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: And so then, she just went right to Flagstaff High School?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Of course, that building is torn down now, that was the high school then. And it was new when we came here. I remember people talking about it, about that nice new high school that cost $75,000, and that was a GREAT deal of money.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yes! (laughter) At that time, I'm sure. I'll bet you couldn't build one for $75,000 now! What was the south side of Flagstaff like? You talked about the houses being there, but was there much else over in there?

ELSIE PYLAND: Do you know where the old Brannen School is, over on Brannen Street?

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Uh-huh.

ELSIE PYLAND: It had been, I guess, the first Catholic church here. And then when they built the new church over on the corner of Cherry and Beaver, that was made into a school. That was the first I knew about it - it was a school, just a regular grammar school.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did the Mexican-American children go there?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. There were a great many Mexicans because they lived over toward the mill, a lot of them worked at the mill. I just don't know, really, about how many went or anything - I just know it was a school.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Were there any stores or anything on that side of the tracks?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, yes, there was the… mainly though, the commissary over at the mill. No dry goods, but groceries. We bought a lot of groceries over there. And then, as I say, it wasn't TOO long 'til we had a car, and this same Mrs. Ryan would bring me… lots of times I'd come with her over into Babbitts' downtown. In the afternoons when our housework was done and the children had had their nap, we'd come to town and buy some groceries at Babbitts'.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now, the grocery store then was in the same department store?

ELSIE PYLAND: Where the department store is now, uh-huh. And it was up until not TOO many years ago when they built that other building and moved the groceries over there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Goodness! I didn't know it was that recent. In the fifties, maybe?

ELSIE PYLAND: I guess. I guess it's been that long. I don't know really where the years, how they get away - they're just gone.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, they really do go fast. Well, do you remember much about the downtown area then, besides Babbitts'? Was there much down....

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, yes. Of course the Monte Vista wasn't there, but the old Weatherford Hotel was there. And then I'm sure that the Kinlani Apartments were built after we came here.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, AFTER you came.

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh. But I remember very well when the Monte Vista Hotel was built. I think that was in 1926 that IT was built. But the rest of the town is a GREAT deal the same - all on Front Street there. I have seen and read articles about it was mostly saloons. But that was before our time here. At that time, Mr. Bender had a nice restaurant, and there was the Bon Ton Grocery along there, and it wasn't all just saloons by any means. We spent our first night here in the old Pine Hotel. We walked from the train over to the old Pine Hotel when we got here.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was that a nice hotel?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, not as respectable a place, and not as nice as the old Weatherford or the old Commercial, but it was the nearest to the.... See, the depot was down now where the freight depot is - the train depot that's there now was built a good many years after that, and that was a passenger depot, and it wasn't too far to walk over there and carry our luggage at night. And Mr. George Attabury [phonetic spelling] was night watchman. He liked to meet the trains. He met us at the train and helped us over there that night. I think it was 2:40 on the morning of the seventeenth of March.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That's a pretty good memory!

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, St. Patrick's Day, and we couldn't get over the snow. And it wasn't too cold, it seemed like. Now, down at the sawmill at McNary, Louisiana, if it was cold enough for the water to freeze as thick as tissue paper, we'd nearly freeze. And here, we couldn't get over it. The thermometer would say it was cold, and it didn't SEEM cold - it was such a different cold. Neither my husband or I had ever been in a high altitude before. We found it a little bit.... Well, we couldn't hurry too much until we got used to it. It would make us short of breath.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, I've been through that too, when I moved here. Well, who were some of your neighbors in the area?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, now, there was a Mrs. Gordon - Mr. and Mrs. Gordon - and she still lives here. Mr. Gordon has died, but Mrs. Ethel Gordon. And it's her son that has the Gordon Steel Company, a big building over toward the mill. And then there was Mr. and Mrs. Burris. He later went to Phoenix and put in a box factory out at.... Not Glendale. Just at the outskirts of.... Maybe it WAS Glendale, right on the outskirts of Phoenix, really, at that time. But he and Mr. Dolan put in a big box factory out there. They have both died, of course, quite some time ago. Mr. Dolan lived longer than Mr. Burris did, but Mrs. Burris is still living and in Phoenix. Then there were some people that came from the South when we did, and they soon went back. They got homesick and soon went back down South.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did the Ryans live over there with you?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes, they were living over there near the mill, and he was working at the mill when we moved over there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: 'Cause he'd been in Flagstaff for some time?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Oh, I think 1912, '13, something like that.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: I think just a little bit they lived here. There were SOME local people, then, employed at the mill?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. Yes, Mr. Burris and Mr. Ryan, and.... I can't remember about Mr. Gordon. He must have been working at the mill, or he wouldn't have been living in one of the company houses. I guess when the mill changed hands and didn't work for a while, I guess maybe that was when he put in his steel shop. That must have been when that happened.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now, when was that?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, really, Mr. Cady didn't live too long after he bought this mill, and I guess he really went broke. There was such a difference in the lumber and in the working conditions, and he had just invested so heavily in it. I just don't know, but he didn't live too long. But I guess really he was pretty financially bad off by the time he died, because everything had gone wrong. And then of course who he sold the mill to, I just don't know.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did the Dolans run that?

ELSIE PYLAND: No, they were over at the other mill, over where the old Mercy Hospital.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: But he had worked for a while at the Cady mill?

ELSIE PYLAND: Mr. Dolan?

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Uh-huh.

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, I don't think so. Mrs. Ryan said so, but if he was ever over there, I just can't remember it. And you see this letter from Mr. Addy says it was Mr. McNary and other people. I just don't believe Mr. Dolan was ever over there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Okay. I wasn't sure.

ELSIE PYLAND: And there was a Mr. Koch. And Mrs. Dolan is still living, but the Kochs’ have died. It seemed to me like that he was really running this other mill. Mr. Colt was the big boss over at the other mill. Maybe Mr. Dolan owned it - I just don't know.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, as far as you knew, he wasn't connected.

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Well, what kind of social life did the community have that you participated in, or that you knew about?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, we didn't do, really, too much of that. I did attend a few nice concerts at the college. But in that day and time we just didn't really go out too much. My husband worked ten, eleven hours at the mill, and my children were little. We were getting about the same wages here as we got in the South, and we found everything much more expensive, living much more expensive here. And I don't know that I thought too much about going out at night. I just kept house and he worked at the mill.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: There weren't any ladies' societies or anything?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, soon there was the Women's Club. I remember when they built the new building there on Aspen, that has already been torn down. I remember going there to some meetings and some parties that they had. They had some fund-raising bridge parties. That was later, I'm not sure just when it was. But as far as the social life, I went to church some, and that was about it. It was just keeping house and raising our family. Mr. and Mrs. Ryan, as I remember it, they'd go to church. They were Catholic and they went to church, but they didn't go out much either. As I said, our husbands, as I remember, had to be to work at seven o'clock at the mill.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, that's a long day. Which church did you go to? There weren't many in town.

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, the Federated Church, was where it is now. And then in about 1926 then, Mr. Vanderhoof came here and organized the Baptist Church that's still over on South Beaver. They sent him here in what they called an old chapel car. It was on the railroad. It was parked on the rails on a spur over there, and he held church services in this old railroad car. And then they bought this little building where the Baptist Church is now at 123 South Beaver. The Seventh-day Adventists had built the church, it was real tiny. I don't know why, I don't remember, I don't think they built another church. I think they just more or less disbanded, they couldn't make a go of it, and sold the building to the Baptists.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That's interesting, I didn't know about the railroad car. So you were here… let me see, was Prohibition still going on when you arrived here? I can't remember when that ended.

ELSIE PYLAND: I believe it was. It didn't interest us right at that time a great deal. You know, it wasn't the social thing to offer somebody a drink when they came in, in that day and time. My husband and I didn't drink. It wasn't an everyday occurrence with us. We lived without thinking too much about it. And of course my husband liked to hunt and fish, and right away that fall he got a deer and a turkey. I remember baking turkey and having friends in, people that he'd met at the mill. But as I remember, we didn't THINK about serving alcoholic drinks at that time, because we weren't used to it, and the people that came in weren't used to it either.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: It wasn't TOO long after you got here that the Depression seemed to hit.

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now, how'd that affect the mill workers?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, pretty bad, but Flagstaff really didn't feel the Depression like they did in lots of places. My husband and I used to think that if the banks hadn't closed Flagstaff would have hardly known there WAS a Depression. Now why that was, I don't know, but things went on pretty much about the same.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: And he kept his job?

ELSIE PYLAND: I just don't remember when the mill closed. It was closed for a while, and how long, I don't know. And then he worked up at the other mill, I remember, a while.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: When the Cady Mill closed?

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That was good that he had his job. And then World War II, do you remember how that affected the town or you in particular?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, the town hadn't grown much until World War II. We began to hear rumors about the government was going to spend millions of dollars, you know, putting in Navajo Ordnance [Depot], and the town REALLY started booming then. Oh! there were so many people came here, and EVERYBODY had money, and things really started booming.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Businesses expanded?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. The town's never been the same since! (laughter) Of course it continues to grow, but that was the first big growth that WE had seen. Of course the town depended a great deal on the tourist trade, on this main highway across the country, you see, Old 66.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So there were a lot of tourists even when you came?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. We thought at that time it was a lot. (laughs) Maybe there wasn't one car - two or three hundred now - but anyway, there were tourists in the summertime.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Do you think a lot of 'em came up from the Phoenix area?

ELSIE PYLAND: Oh, yes. Lots of people had cabins out at Mormon Lake and Lake Mary, or just anyplace that they could come up here on their vacation and stay awhile, because you see they didn't have the air conditioning in Phoenix then, and the summers were REALLY hot.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, they are that. Now, I don't know, did the Cady Mill ever burn while you were here? Or do you think that was kind of before? I don't know if there was ever a bad fire in that or not.

ELSIE PYLAND: You know, I can't remember.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: I don't know. I had thought that maybe it had a fire.

ELSIE PYLAND: If they did, it was after my husband wasn't working there, and we weren't really connected with it and didn't know many people that WERE working there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Your husband stayed with the Arizona Lumber and Timber then, after he moved over there? Or did he have different jobs?

ELSIE PYLAND: The next job he had after working up at the other mill, he was a deputy sheriff for Mr. John Parsons. He worked at the sheriff's office a while, for Mr. Parsons.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That was for the county, right?

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did he have to go out to different places?

ELSIE PYLAND: He was really a night jailer, but in the daytime he would go on trips with - Durwood McKinney was undersheriff. He was Mr. Parsons' son-in-law. And Arthur Vandevier, that is still living, lives in Sedona - my husband went....

[END TAPE 1, SIDE 1; BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE 2]

ELSIE PYLAND: ... much difference now, and everything around the jail, as there has been in the town. Everything has changed so, grown.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was it pretty much located where it is now?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: It was right by the courthouse, or in it, yeah.

ELSIE PYLAND: The main entrance was on Birch. Birch runs east and west, and that was the main entrance then. As I remember, there was no entrance whatever on Agassiz at that time.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, so that has been remodeled and changed.

ELSIE PYLAND: And the courthouse, the whole front's been changed.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, they really added-on.

ELSIE PYLAND: But it's only been maybe twenty-five years since they remodeled the jail and built the upstairs. It was all just one story at that time.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That was fairly recent then. Now, did he work anyplace else besides the sheriff's?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, after that he had a pool hall downtown, and he bought Mrs. Scolsori [phonetic spelling, Golsori?] out. She had a beer license. He put in the beer, then later he did get the liquor license. He ran that place until he died. He had Joe's Place on the corner of Santa Fe and San Francisco. I sold it after he died.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, I didn't know that. Now had that at one time - let's see, Joe's Place - was it across the street where Babbitts' had a store for a while?

ELSIE PYLAND: That was in the same building. Babbitts' used to have a grocery store there. Mr. and Mrs. Nackard, senior, the parents of all these Nackards, had a dry goods store there, ready-to-wear, when we came here. And then they built the NEW building, moved over where the big Nackard Building is now. And Babbitts' put in a grocery store there. And then I guess my husband put the bar in there when the grocery store moved. Of course the main Babbitts' was downtown, but they had put that one in there on the corner. Mr. Harkey [phonetic spelling] ran it.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Is he the Mr. Harkey Realty?

ELSIE PYLAND: It was his father. Mrs. Harkey's still living.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: I didn’t know that. So they have been here a long time.

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Okay, who owns Joe's Place now?

ELSIE PYLAND: Raymond Smith, J. Raymond Smith. He has it leased out, but as far as I know he still owns it. That's who I sold it to after my husband died.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was it named Joe's Place when he owned it?

ELSIE PYLAND: No… Yes. He had bought this little place down the street, from Mrs. Golsori. Mr. Golsori was running it, and he was killed in a car wreck, and Mrs. Golsori sold it then to my husband. But it was just beer at that time, as I remember. And then when he moved onto the corner there, when he got the number six license, I think, as they called it. That was package goods, wine, beer, whiskey, everything. And that was when he named it Joe's Place. He didn't actually name it that, everybody just said, "Joe's place," and it just went from there.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, his name was Joe?

ELSIE PYLAND: His name was Joe. It was just Joe's Place.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That's good to know the history, 'cause it's still there. Was there any flooding? Living on the south side for a while, do you remember any flooding over in that area?

ELSIE PYLAND: Not over to the mill where we were, there wasn't. Down maybe on South Beaver, in there, River de Flag overflowed. But I sure don't remember of any being over at the mill. In fact, I think we had sort of a long dry spell after we came here. I know the summer we came here, water was very scarce, but they had just the little old reservoir, and they built this big one not too long after we came here. We thought it was immense. I remember there was quite a dedication ceremony for the new reservoir. And now it looks SO little. And of course it wouldn't BEGIN to.... But for years back, we've had to have more water from Lake Mary and the wells. But at that time then, after it was opened, I don't remember that we were very short of water for a while.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: With the larger reservoir.

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Well, you were here when they had to bring in water by train?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now, did they bring that from Winslow?

ELSIE PYLAND: Winslow, uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did they just put it in the water system, or how did you get your water at that time?

ELSIE PYLAND: I believe it was emptied into a huge tank down at the railroad. It was the Santa Fe tank; their water. And I believe that they were really the ones who instigated getting the water here, because they had to have water, the Santa Fe did, for their trains at that time. And that tank was torn down many years ago, but I believe the Santa Fe and the city had to work together to bring the water here in the railroad cars, and empty it into the tank there at.... It was just to the right, going down South San Francisco, just across the track and to the right on south San Francisco.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: (laughing while talking obscures comment)

ELSIE PYLAND: As I remember, it looked huge to me, anyway. It was a huge big tank. Huge big tank - that's very poor grammar! (laughter)

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Were there any big snows that you remember really well?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, yes, the first big snow that I remember was in the winter of '29 and '30. In January of 1930 it was a big snow, and I had a baby boy January 16, 1930. We had the one girl at home, and when I needed to get to the hospital that night, my husband called a taxi, and we had a little trouble there at the house, getting away from the house. On the way up to the old Mercy Hospital, he ran out of gas. He walked back to some telephone or filling station I don't know just where, and the filling station he went to, he asked the man, and I THINK it was one of the Mr. Webbers. He asked him if he'd come back TO his taxi and help me into the hospital. And I remember they put my feet out on the running board and helped me into the hospital. And the nurse and the doctor wanted to know, "Why didn't you come on? You said you were coming!" And I said, "First we got stuck in the snow, and then we ran out of gas." And I wasn't there TOO long until I had a seven-and-a-half-pound baby boy.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh! You just barely made it!

ELSIE PYLAND: And then in '36 we had a big snow, but we were very thankful for it, because really it did replenish the water supply just wonderfully well.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was it hard gettin' around town?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. The city, of course, had begun by that time to have snowplows and lots of equipment that we DIDN'T have years back. In 1930, I remember seeing a man with some horses pulling a sled with a snowplow of some kind on it. And I'm not sure, but I believe that was in January of 1930 before I went to the hospital on the night of the sixteenth of January. I know the snow was pretty deep. You know, it was ON the street. Everybody had walked on it and then driven on it until it was packed, more or less, but it was still deep in the streets.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, boy! Were there any big epidemics or anything while you were here? Anything you had to be real careful about?

ELSIE PYLAND: No, not really, that I remember of. I know the school, if they were closed, it wasn't for long. I don't remember of the schools being closed to amount to anything, because you see the last bad epidemic was the flu in 1918. And it hadn't been TOO bad here. It was REAL bad in the South.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, I can imagine. Were there any Indian families in town that you can remember?

ELSIE PYLAND: No. Of course the Pow Wow started after we came here. And as I remember, the first year or two, they called it the "Days of '49." They didn't call it the Pow Wow. And I've read since about when the Pow Wow started, but I'm sure on the Fourth of July of 1926, down on the corner of Aspen and Agassiz, they built a platform. I don't know who did it, if it was the city, Chamber of Commerce, who did it, but I remember seeing some Indian dances there. And then on the Fourth of July there was quite a parade downtown, and Governor Hunt rode through the streets on a donkey. They said that was the way he had come to Flagstaff. Oh, you know, he was greeting us all and he was glad to be riding the donkey through the streets in Flagstaff, and it was quite a parade. But it was just anybody that wanted to be in it. It wasn't just the Indians - there were some Indians, but it was after that, that it really turned into the all-Indian Pow Wow.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did the other Fourth of July celebrations have fireworks and things like that?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. We went out to the City Park at night that first year and had some glorious fireworks. Of course there was a grandstand which they tore away just a few years ago, but we sat in the grandstand and watched the fireworks.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh! I can imagine you really celebrated.

ELSIE PYLAND: Of course there was a fire danger, but at that time they allowed them. I believe it was the Elks Lodge men that put the fireworks on out at the City Park that Fourth of July.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: It probably was, yeah. Was there anything in East Flagstaff when you came?

ELSIE PYLAND: Very little. On Fourth Street here it was just a little dirt road, and down somewhere, I THINK about where the Cedar Pine Shopping Center is now, there was a little silver fox farm. We called it the fox farm. I don't know who it belonged to - I don't remember that - but they raised silver foxes down there. There was one or two buildings or houses out this far on the highway. Do you know where Mrs. Paul [phonetic spelling] lives? Her building is still right out here. When you get on 66, off of Fourth, it's just about a half a block, I think, and it was a Mr. Visnol [phonetic spelling], his name was, had a house along somewhere. And then there was the big Greenlaw home farther on out - Mrs. Greenlaw. It was set back, a beautiful little home, and all these big pines, you know, that are still here. And she had built some cabins. That was the first tourist cabins of any kind that I remember anything about.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: What was that? People from Phoenix would come and stay in those?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, and tourists.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Just anyone coming?

ELSIE PYLAND: Because right away there was - people began to drive across the country in their cars. That was something new and people really enjoyed it - instead of having to go on the train - to drive their own cars across the country.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Kind of talking about tourist spots, did you ever go to Oak Creek Canyon?

ELSIE PYLAND: The first time I went to Oak Creek Canyon was in the summer of 1925, I guess. No, maybe '26. It must have been 1926. It was when my daughter that's living now, I think was three years old. That would have been right. She was born in 1922. And there was a woman that I used to know in Louisiana, was through here, she and her husband, on their way to Oregon - Klamath Falls, Oregon - because there was a big new sawmill up there. And I remember going down to Oak Creek with her. And she was in an old Dodge touring car, and it was so long it wouldn't make the turns. You can still see the old highway. She had to back up several times in order to make that turn to go to Oak Creek. And oh, I thought it was the most beautiful place I ever saw.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, I can imagine!

ELSIE PYLAND: Of course I had been used to rivers and streams and hills and all that back in Missouri. And this place was a little bit arid-looking, there wasn't too much greenery.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Compared to back East, yeah.

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: It's a lot sparser vegetation. Once you got down into Oak Creek, were there roads or anything to drive on? Like now there's a road that runs THROUGH the canyon. Was there at that time?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, now the old Lolomi Lodge, and Mrs. Mayhew's big home was there. It was already a lodge at that time. Mr. Simpson, later that was manager of J.C. Penney Company, had built quite a building down there. It was quite an attraction. He had cabins for rent, and he put in a big swimming pool. It was quite an attraction. Instead of swimming in the creek, people would go and we'd pay so much an hour for the children to swim there in the swimming pool. And the old Lolomi Lodge was across the creek where Mr. Simpson built; was right on the road. We'd just turn off the road into his place.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now, as you're going right down into Sedona, Lolomi then was off on the right?

ELSIE PYLAND: It was to the right, uh-huh.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Down inside. 'Cause it's completely gone now, isn't it?

ELSIE PYLAND: The Lolomi Lodge is, but Mr. Simpson's place is still there. There's SOMETHING there, I'm not sure what. But where his store was, there's still a store there - I THINK. I drive through there once in a while, but I'm afraid I don't....

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Yeah, you wouldn't think, unless you were thinking specifically about it.

ELSIE PYLAND: There's SO many buildings now, of homes and businesses that wasn't there at the time I'm talkin' about. And Sedona, I think, was one building that was a little store.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Not much down there?

ELSIE PYLAND: No.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Did you ever go to Winslow when you were here?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, not soon after we first came here. But by the time we had bought a Model "T" sedan, there were some friends of mine came out from Missouri. He was working for the lumber company in Winslow, came out from Missouri. He soon went to Phoenix. But at that time, they lived in Winslow a while, and we used to go visit them. We thought that was - it was a new paved highway, and oh, it was wonderful! And now the old part does look SO narrow and so many curves, but at that time we just thought it was wonderful.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Just to have it PAVED, probably.

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes!

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Well, was Winslow about the same size as Flagstaff population-wise?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, now, of course it was the railroad ... terminal? Would that be the word I want? They had the big Harvey House there, and that's where the crews, the men that worked for the railroad lived there, because that's where they would go to work from their homes in Winslow. That's where they changed crews, in Winslow. The old hotel was really something. They had a nice big dining room - La Posada? Was that it? That sounds about right. And anybody that could possibly afford it would drive down to Winslow for Sunday lunch or maybe dinner, and then come home. But that was a little bit too far to drive at night. We didn't like to stay down there for dinner. Mostly it was for lunch.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Then you could make it back by [night].

ELSIE PYLAND: Uh-huh. La Posada, I believe. Of course it's been closed now, I guess, many years. But it was really - well, the NICEST place anywhere along here. See, there never was a Harvey House here in Flagstaff. Ash Fork was the next Harvey House west. But there was a distance between Ash Fork and Winslow, for the Harvey Houses. And of course when you were on the train, they'd stop and you'd all get off of the train and go into the Harvey House to eat. They didn't have dining cars. We'd stop at the Harvey Houses to eat.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Now they were just spotting all along the track, _________. Did you ever go to Williams? I was wondering what some of the surrounding places were like.

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, yes.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Was it pretty much the way it is now, still very small?

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, Williams was really - there was more business and more activity then because there was a sawmill there, too, you know. But it was quite an active little town until the sawmill cut out, and I guess torn down.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: That was the Saginaw and Manistee?

ELSIE PYLAND: Saginaw, it was this one up here, west of town. I don't know what the one was at Williams. I've just forgotten.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: I had heard the Saginaw, (laughing while talking obscuring comment). Okay. Let's see, is there anything else? Can you think of anything else? I think I'm out of questions.

ELSIE PYLAND: Well, the town has just changed so and grown so fast. I've just sort of set back and let it all happen, and I haven't been able to keep up with it.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: Oh, one question I want to ask, you didn't always live over by the mill then, did you?

ELSIE PYLAND: Oh, no, no. For twenty-nine years before I bought this little mobile home - I moved out here two years ago - but my husband and I bought at 220 North Agassiz. It was a pretty good-sized house, and that's where we lived for twenty-nine years, and then I moved out here. I lived there, you see, for about ten years after my husband died. And then the county kept wanting me to sell my place to them, so I did. I didn't know where I was going to move, if I was going to buy a house or rent an apartment or what. And Mrs. Ferrell lived here, and she was an old-timer. I think she was born in Flagstaff. She wasn't well, and she had to give up housekeeping and go live with her daughter in Williams. So I bought this from her and moved out here - had a garage sale and sold a lot of things and moved out here.

KRISTINE PRENNACE: So, now is your old house still standing?

ELSIE PYLAND: Yes. They told me at that time that they were going to tear it down and make it all into parking, but they're using it for offices. I don't know how many they have in it, but then it's still there, because my friend, Kay Dates [phonetic spelling], came up from Phoenix and she said she'd like to see the Pow Wow again, so we drove in, and didn’t know where in the world we were going to park. And we did find a place over by ... well, Mrs. Ed Babbitt, in front of her house is where we parked, and walked on down to the parade. And we passed by my old house. We went in and sat down on the porch a few minutes - we were a little bit early. I'm not used to walking much anymore, I've sort of given it up, and the sun was hot. But really, I haven't driven by too much - not that I regret selling it, but it just brought back too many memories. The house was too big for me, I didn't need that big a house anymore, living by myself. But we did cut across - what used to be my vacant lot is now a parking lot - and sat on the porch a few minutes, ________, bare concrete floor of the porch. (laughter) But we did see the parade.

[END OF INTERVIEW]