FLAGSTAFF PUBLIC LIBRARY ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
Mrs. Mary Greenlaw Draine
Interview number NAU.OH.28.14

Mrs. Mary Greenlaw Draine, a Flagstaff native of the Greenlaw family. First two tapes record an interview conducted by Richard Shallman in the fall of 1974(?), second half includes conversation with Louise Beamer (sister of Mary Greenlaw Draine). The third tape is an interview conducted by Susan L. Rogers on November 25, 1975. Transcribers: Susan Deaver Olberding and Nancy C. Warden.

Shallman interview begins on page 14. Photos that go with this interview are at NAU Special Collections: Arizona Historical Society - Flagstaff #324, as is the manuscript that Richard Shallman wrote, based on the tapes in this interview. Scanned copies of the photos are included at the end of the Shallman transcript.

Outline of Subjects Covered in Taped Interview

Tape 3 Side 1 (with Susan Rogers)

Greenlaw Sawmill - how started

Weatherford Hotel

Bank Hotel

Rio de Flag flood, 1906-07

Flu epicemic of 1918

Christmas traditions

Schultz Pass

Fourth of July

Indians coming to POW WOW

Indian stories

Teachers at Emerson School

Miss Black

Normal School

Black families

Taylor

Chinese family, Jung

Activities at Normal School

Teachers at Normal School

Dr. Blome

Water system

Judge Doe, lived at 405 N. Beaver

Peddling milk

Sandy Donahue

Babbitts, Switzers

Brothers and sisters

Greenlaw Ranch

Horse and buggy

Oak Creek

Thomas Place

Trains

Commercial Hotel, Bank Hotel, Weatherford Hotel

Neighbors on Leroux

J.A. Vail

Story at end that did not record:

When mother was going to get married at 1834(?), she did not have anywhere to make her wedding clothes. Mrs. Beale had the only sewing machine on Woody Mountain, so she went there and stayed with them a couple of days while she sewed her clothes. Mrs. Beale was very generous with the sewing machine and would let anyone come to use it, and they would stay with Beales for a couple of days.

Tape 1 Side 1 (with Richard Shallman)

Early family history

Jim Lamport (uncle)

Sister became Mrs. Treat

Early Flagstaff (Greenlaw area)

Methodist Church

Everyone had livestock

Her house on 309 N. Leroux

Showing and talking about old pictures

Mother ran tourist Hotel

First public school house

Grand Canyon Falls

Parties

Showing pictures of old downtown

Switzer house

Emerson School

Streets and sidewalks

Meeting her husband

Work at J.C. Penny’s store

Paydays for different businesses

Greenlaw Ranch

Mrs. Drains drives interviewer around town

Nunnery on Beaver Street

Cherry Street

Dr. Brannen’s house (fraternity house)

Emerson School

Different houses moved

Different houses torn down

Stone church (?)

What stores carried for merchandise

Old Courthouse

Switzer’s house

Babbitt’s

Greenlaws

Roads discussed

Stone quarry

Three different hills

Ranches and agriculture

Tape 1 Side 2

Continuation of drive through town

Greenlaw property area

Knoles family

Who owns what near Greenlaw Shopping Center

Cottages were near Greenlaw

Hitching rings on trees

Cattle and sheep

Isabel Hill, Stone Quarry Hill

Stone quarrying

Story about German woman who poisoned husbands in Flagstaff

Bank Hotel

Undertaker’s house

Lowell Observatory

Father buried in Phoenix

Observatory

Roads as seen from Observatory Hill

More about German lady

Teachers

Ranch land north of high school (?)

Pine trees in streets and sidwalks (Leroux and Beaver)

Drive completed

Tape 2 Side 1

How to take pictures

Making soap instead of buying it

Mormons mentioned

Canning

Clothing

Babbitt’s store

Food kept in cellar, ice

First vacuum cleaner in Flagstaff

Cleaning carpets (beating them)

Everyone extremely friendly

Undertaking and old cemetery near City Park

Mexicans

Two black families in Flagstaff during childhood

Minorities

Indians looking in windows

Chinese

Horse and buggy, walking

High school at the college

Mormons at school

Family unit working together

Babbitt’s, continued

Normal School courses and activities

Social parties

Illnesses

Clothing in winter

Pneumonia

Tape 2 Side 2

Transportation

Winter activities at ranch

Summer activities, parties, etc.

Sawmill

Buffaloes, elk imported

Opera House

Bank Hotel

Holidays, Fourth of July

Henry Ashurst, Indians

Rio de Flag flooded

Winter weather

Making Candy

More pictures shown and discussed

Oak Creek

Horses going down hill in winter

Winter snow pictures shown and discussed

Town Spring - water system

More pictures

Weatherford Hotel

Weather Bureau House

Tape 3 - Side 1 (Note: This interview takes place one year after the R. Shallman interview, which follows.)

This is an interview with Mrs. Mary Greenlaw Draine, a Flagstaff native, who has lived most of her life, in Flagstaff, and this interview is being conducted on November 25th, 1975 at 309 N. Leroux, the house that Mrs. Draine was born in and lives in now. The interviewer is Susan Louise Rogers representing the Flagstaff City - Coconino County Public Library.

SUSAN ROGERS: Do you know how your father got started at the Sawmill?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, he was in the lumber business in Maine before he came out here in 1881. And he had heard about the west and wanted to come out here, and so he came. He came through before the railroad, they didn't have the bridge across Canyon Diablo and the railroad stopped there and a wagon picked them up and brought them the rest of the way in 1881.

SUSAN ROGERS: What do you remember about the Weatherford Hotel?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't remember- it was built when I was a little girl. We used to play with Hugh Weatherford, their son, but there isn't anything I remember about it special 'cept we used to run around on the balcony, they had an outside balcony. We used to run around there, chase each other, you know.

SUSAN ROGER: You remember there ever being any kind of special parties there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, not particularly. The old Bank Hotel that was on the corner across the street from the Santa Fe. They had one room in there that they used as an opera house. They had picture shows, and they'd take the seats out when they'd want to have a dance and they used it also for a skating rink. And that old room is still there, but it was in, what they call the Bank Hotel, on the corner.

SUSAN ROGER: Was that on the first floor or the second?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That was the first one that was built before the Weatherford was.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember going to special dances?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes, I have a picture of a big party that was there that I happen to be in. (shows picture)

SUSAN ROGER What about any natural disasters around Flagstaff. Do you remember any big floods or blizzards?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: When my sister and I were going to the Emerson School when we were about 9 or 10, why, the River de Flag, we'd had a big winter that year, and it really went on a rampage and it washed all the way sit (?) bridges a way from town. And the only way anyone could get across the little River de Flag was to go on the Santa Fe railroad bridge. Everything else was washed out.

SUSAN ROGER: What year was that about, just generally?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: About 1906 or 07, I guess.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember any big blizzards.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, oh, well yes, we had blizzards, but I don't know what year, I remember staying inside.

SUSAN ROGER: What about that flu epidemic in 1918?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, I was one of first ones to get it, and it was really bad. That little old hospital- do you know where the hospital is up by the old sawmill?

SUSAN ROGER: Mercy?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, Mercy Hospital. Well, I think they had about 5 rooms up there; it used to be an old home. And, that was the only hospital we had, and of course, that filled up immediately, so they made a hospital out of the Emerson School on the lower floor and on the Ideal Hotel over here. And they sent nurses up from Phoenix because there wasn't enough nurses here and they asked for volunteers, you know, to help take care of it. And, they were just dying, 8 and 10 people a day because they didn't know what to do for them.

SUSAN ROGER: Did you end up in the hospital or-?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, I had it one of the first persons that had it in town and there was only two doctors here at that time, and my mother couldn't get a hold of the doctor so she just doctored me and I came out of it all right. And I tried to help nurse up at the Emerson School after I was well, but I turned out to work better in the kitchen than I was a nurse.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember any special Christmas traditions that either your family celebrated, or Flagstaff?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, I don't think so. We always had the church services and Christmas trees, and at that time, they didn't have electric lights on them, and they had candles. And they used to light the candles, and one time, we were at a church party and one of the branches on the tree got on fire and created quite a stir and I think they banned them from being put on. The little fancy candles that they used to have? We used to put them on ours, but Mama wouldn't let us light them, they'd just be there for ornaments.

SUSAN ROGER: Did you used to go and chop your own tree down?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, we used to go up to Schultz Pass. The Forest Service would let us go and get, we didn't even have to get a permit, but anyone could go, and we used to bring them in for half the kids in town. The ones who didn't have a vehicle to bring them in, why, we'd go out and cut 4,5, or 6 trees and bring them to our friends. And it was permissible then, and up through Schultz Pass was where we always went for those. We always cut our own tree.

SUSAN ROGER: What do you remember about the early Pow Wows? Did you used to ever go to them?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes, went to all of them. Before they had a Pow Wow, they used to have a 4th of July, um, over by the college, near the cemetery. I think it was just about where the stadium is over there that was the fair grounds and they used to have horse races and bronco busting and foot races and, you know things like that. Yes, we used to go to all of them.

SUSAN ROGER: Were there any problems with the Indians? Do you know?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, there wasn't. They used to come in to get all their supplies from Flagstaff and they'd come in with teams from out of the Reservation, take days to come in. And as I remember, their poor old horses looked like they were half starved and they had these old black snake whips, you know, and they'd whip them along, and the poor little things. I remember them going by our place and how sorry we were for the animals because they were under fed and they had such big loads to carry. But, we never had any problems with Indians. In fact, my Mother and Dad were married here in Flagstaff in 1883. And they lived up at where is now the mill right across the street from where the hospital was. And my Mother said that she was bathing my brother, my oldest brother, one night. And she had him on the kitchen table and she looked up, they didn't have any blinds, window blinds, and she looked up and there was two Indians looking in the window at her and nearly scared her to death. And she ran and got a sheet and put up in front of the window and when my father come home, she was telling him how frightened she was; they was just curious to see what was going on. There was nothing, you know, they weren’t hurting anything, they was just curious.

SUSAN ROGER: Let's talk about your Emerson School adventures. What do you remember about Emerson? Do you remember any special teachers you had there or anything?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes. I remember some of the teachers. Miss Black was one of the first ones, people I think that was born in Flagstaff, too. And she was my sixth grade teacher. And I don't remember anything special about them except we went to, we graduated, I think we graduated in 1914. And we went from the Emerson School up to the college. There was no high school here at that time. And we took our high school training up there, because there were only one hundred students all together. I think when we got one hundred students we got a half a day off up there. Now there are 10,500 now.

SUSAN ROGER: At Emerson, how many students about?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: There was, it was eight grades. But I don't recall how many there was. Just an ordinary room full of kids I guess. And ah...

SUSAN ROGER: There was a separate classroom for each.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes. Separate classroom. But it was the old school that I showed you. And that was there when I started to school. That was Emerson School.

SUSAN ROGER: Were there any Indians going to school then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Not in here. I never did go to school with an Indian up here. And there was only two colored families in Flagstaff at that time. One of them name was Taylor. And we went to school with two of the Taylor kids. And then I think Mrs. Taylor's mother was here. And she used to give some practical nursing here for anyone who was sick. There were no nurses in town. And I think she came from the south where she had had experience. And I know she stayed with my aunt when she was sick and took care of her. She was a nice old colored person. But there was only two families in town at that time.

SUSAN ROGER: What about Chinese? Were there a lot of Chinese there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, there was one Chinese family here, the June family that are still here. And they had a little old hand laundry over on south San Francisco Street. And we used to go by once in awhile, I mean just be going by. And all of these little Chinese kids, I think there were right about seven or eight, be playing around on the floor, and the mama would be ironing and the papa washing. And they're some of the prominent families, prominent Chinese families here now. They have that interior decorating. That was the June family, and he was one of the younger kids. I think he was the youngest of the family.

SUSAN ROGER: Can you tell me a little bit more about NAU? Did you live there when you were going there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh no. No we lived right here in this house. And we walked back and forth. And we'd even came home for lunch.

SUSAN ROGER: Really?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And we ah, why sure. We used to go up oh by where Food Town is up there. That was what we called "the back way". And the other way was going around up (?). But, ah, no, we used to come home for lunch. We didn't get to go back to many things during the evening, because there wasn't many streetlights. Oh, we'd go up to a band concert or play or something. But, oh, just for anything that was doing up there, we didn't get to go very often. Because we were still using horse and buggies at that time. It was kind of hard to hitch a horse up at night, you know, and go. But we used to have good times.

SUSAN ROGER: Do most of the people that went to the Normal School, were from Flagstaff or did they come...?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, the, we used those two dormitories were full, and those were all occupied by students from Arizona, but from other towns. And I think most of the folks that lived in Flagstaff just walked back and forth to school. They didn't stay at the dormitories.

SUSAN ROGER: They didn't stay?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No.

SUSAN ROGER: What kind of classes did you take up there? Do you remember any special ones?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, the same thing you take in any high school. We took our high school work up there, you see. And, ah, algebra and literature and just the same thing that you take, any high school course. I guess they've got a lot of new ones that we didn't take.

SUSAN ROGER: Was it a four-year program in high school?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Uh huh, uh huh.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember any of the teachers that you had up there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, Dr. Blome was the president of the college for many years. Miss Jones was the art teacher, and Miss Lawson was the music teacher. I mean you want some of the names? Dr. Adams was-

SUSAN ROGER: A little bit about them if you can remember.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't think they had more than about eight teachers up there.

SUSAN ROGER: And did they live on the college?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, I think most of them lived down town here. Most of them had their homes of their own. Except the Dr. Blomes. I believed they lived in Taylor Hall. And took care of Taylor Hall when that- but I believe the rest of them lived down town here.

SUSAN ROGER: Can you remember any of the dorm rules that they had then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No.

SUSAN ROGER: What time the girls had to be in. You don't remember?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No I never lived in the dorms. But I imagine they had to be in by half past eight or nine. (laughs)

SUSAN ROGER: If not earlier. What were some of the big social events down there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: At the college?

SUSAN ROGER: Yeah, uh huh.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, just the dances once in awhile and then some concert we couldn't attend. They didn't even have Ashurst Hall. They just had a little hall that; well it was the community hall. If they had anything in it, they had their little plays in it, and they had their sings and so forth. But I don't remember what it was even called. But ah, no as I say when we had, when they got a hundred students, we got a half a day off. So you know it wasn't a very big college.

SUSAN ROGER: Ah, what about the water system in Flagstaff. Can you tell-?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well when my parents came here, there was no water system. They used to haul water from what is now called "Old Town Springs". It's up on the side of Observatory Hill, and that was developed. That was called the "Beale Spring". And people just got water up there and they would haul it in. And then there was some man that decided he'd go into business and haul water to people. And he had wooden barrels. And he used to bring it around. And they charge a dollar a barrel for water.

SUSAN ROGER: That's expensive isn't it?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes. It was all terribly expensive. And the people used to have drains on their houses and would catch water in wash tubs, and things to use to wash with and for the chickens and the cows and things. I know this house was all fixed with troughs as they called them. And then the water would go down into the tubs. And when one would get full, why you'd pull it away and put another one on, you know, so that you could save it. And when the first little reservoir, which was up at the old country club, was built. I don't remember how many million gallons it held, but we thought we'd never, would be without water again at that time. And my gosh it was just a drop in the bucket, like a little pond of water. It isn't even there.

SUSAN ROGER: It isn't?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember were there any fights over water rights over that spring, or anything?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That Jack Smith Spring?

SUSAN ROGER: That one at Old Town.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, I don't think up there. That was ________. And it's still flowing some.

SUSAN ROGER: I've seen it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And what they call the "Jack Smith Spring" or the "City Spring" now is up on the mountain. And an uncle and aunt of mine homesteaded up there. And his name was Jack Smith, and they named the spring. The water system and that is where we're getting our water for all, for both those big reservoirs up there is from the Jack Smith Spring. 'Course it's been developed a lot in the last few years. They've found new water up there that they can get piped down. This all piped from up on the back of the peaks.

SUSAN ROGER: What do you remember about some of the people that lived down here? Do you remember Judge Doe?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes. I showed you on that picture where Judge Doe's house is right over here. It's still there. It's right next door to the Episcopal Church.

SUSAN ROGER: I live in that house.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, do you?

SUSAN ROGER: Yes. That's why I wanted to know.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh sure. We knew the Judge Does very very well. They didn't have any children. The reason- I used to have to peddle milk to them 'cause my mother always made her cows pay for their feed. And we had two cows. And my brothers were here to milk them. And we used to peddle milk around the neighborhood to help pay for the feed. And Mrs. Doe took milk from us. Yes _________. And that's where you live now?

SUSAN ROGER: What was she like?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well I don't think she liked kids very well. And he didn't like them at all. They didn't have any children. And, ah, they were sort of reserved people; nice people. They were nice people; well thought of. Except the kids didn't think much of them, because they didn't pay any attention to them. And we used to take them milk, and she would empty it, and that was all. But she'd hand us back our little bucket; they took it in buckets. And then we had some other people that we took milk to. And once in awhile they'd give us an apple or a cookie or a piece of candy, or maybe invite us in. Mrs. Doe never did.

SUSAN ROGER: Never did.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But she was distinguished. She was a nice person. She just didn't have any children and didn't care for them.

SUSAN ROGER: So, you never went inside their house.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, I was in after I was grown. I was inside of her house.

SUSAN ROGER: How many years, do you know, when they built that house?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No I don't, I don't. 'Cause I was born in this house. And that was built soon afterwards. I don't think that that is- I think it might have been, this was built in '84, '88. And I imagine that was built probably 1890. I don't know. I really don't know.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember Sandy Donahue?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, he was a saloon man.

SUSAN ROGER: What do you remember about him?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: All I remember is Mama didn't want Dad to go down (laughs) to Sandy Donahue's or to the Black's or any place when there were a bunch of fellas get together. No, I don't, or I guess- being recorded isn't it?

SUSAN ROGER: That's all right.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laughs). And the Donahue house is over here on Humphreys. And that's where that beauty parlor is right across from the Catholic Church, the second house. That's the old Donahue house. And it was built about the same time that the Does and all these others were built.

SUSAN ROGER: What bout G.A. Bray?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Grey?

SUSAN ROGER: Bray, B r a y.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't remember.

SUSAN ROGER: You don't remember?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I remember the name, but I don't know anything about the Brays. I don't know even what he did.

SUSAN ROGER: He's a merchant. I know that-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh. Bray. No, I didn't know him.

SUSAN ROGER: What other families can you think of?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, the Babbitts.

SUSAN ROGER: What about your neighbors?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: The Babbitts came in 1886, I believe. There were four families of Babbitts came out here. And they went into business. And that's why there are so many Babbitts, you know, so many. But my, they're wonderful people. All of them are wonderful people. And, ah, they all had big families. And the families have all stayed, and they're having big families. There's about four generations of Babbitts here. And, ah, they're all nice people. But ah, the Switzer family, the old Switzer store down here, my mother was a very close friend of Mr. Switzer's mother. In fact Mama said that Will, which owned the store, the older man was twelve years old when he came. And, ah, what a fine boy he was; what a nice family. There were only two or three in the family, I think. But the Switzers (ed: pronounced with short "i") in Phoenix, you know Switzer's store? He's a brother of Switzer. Only he changed his name to "Switzer" (short "i"). And it's spelled just the same. And they have stores over in Los Angeles and Pasadena and all those places. But he was a brother of this Mr. Switzer down there.

SUSAN ROGER: Do you remember when William Switzer died?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Who?

SUSAN ROGER: When William Switzer died?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well yes, about, oh about seven years ago.

SUSAN ROGER: Not too long ago.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, no no. Not too long ago. I was down in Babbitts' one day shopping, and I was talking to him, he was in there. And I said, "Mr. Switzer, I don't like our town as big as it is. There isn't anybody in here I know today." And he said, "I don't like it either for that reason." And he said, that the "reason that I really don't like it anymore is because we have to lock our doors. And we never locked a door all the time we lived in Flagstaff until the last few years." And we never locked doors here. Our doors was open all the time. Kids could come in the back door, the side door, the front door, it didn't matter where, and, ah, when we lived out at the ranch where the Americana is, I don't think we had a key to the back door. We didn't lock our houses. And I lock mine up tighter than a whistle every night now, because if you don't, you better.

SUSAN ROGER: How many brothers and sisters do you have?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I had two brothers. They are both dead. And I have, I had three sisters. And Mrs. Knoles, my youngest sister, her birthday was yesterday, and she died about six years ago. And, ah, I- two other sisters. My twin sister, Miz Beamer, and my sister Vera Greenlaw lives over in Palo Alto. And there's just the three of us left.

SUSAN ROGER: Your twin sister lives here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Just three blocks up the street from me.

SUSAN ROGER: Can you tell me a little bit about your ranch life? Did you used to live there in the summer?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes. We lived there the year around after it was established after the- my father homesteaded it. And when you homestead a place, you have to live on it part of the time. And so we used to move out there in the summer time. But we would move back in this house in the winter. And then that got to be too big a chore to be moving twice a year. So after we were a little older and could go back and forth to school with our horse and buggy, why we just moved out there permanently. And my mother rented this house. That's how I happened to have it. She kept it all the years and sold it to me.

SUSAN ROGER: What did you used to do out at the ranch? Did you have special duties that you had to do?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh sure. We'd carry in wood and feed the chickens, and take care of the rabbits. I never had to milk, but my brothers used to have to milk the cows. But we would harness up our own horses and come to town. And well, just like any kid would have to do, you know, just take care of the chores. Wash on a wash board and hang them out, and the wind would blow them around the clothes line until you could hardly get them undone. But ah, and it seemed like a long way out there. Now it's, well it's just a little over two miles. But when we were coming back with a horse and buggy in the wintertime, especially going to school, we couldn't trot our horse, we had to walk them. And Dad used to put, he'd bring in great big stones, heavy stones and put them in the oven or on top of the stove to heat. And then he'd bring in the lap robes and heat them behind the stove so that we could start out warm. But by the time we got in town here, with the horse walking and a blizzard on, why we were cold, you know. And we had to bring our horse up here. We had a big barn out in the back. And we had to unhitch "Old Ned" and feed him and water him. And then we walked to school from here- the college. Kids would die if they had to live like that. (laughs)

SUSAN ROGER: Probably. Did you used to go to Oak Creek when you were little?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, one of the first times I went to Oak Creek was- I was about twelve or fourteen, and I went down with my father. He used to like to go down and fish. And old Mr. Doe used to go down fishing. He was quite a fisherman. And where Mayhew Lodge is down there? That's where they used to stay, that was the old Thomas place, and Mrs. Thomas used to take a few fishermen in and give them lodging and meals. They'd go down with their horses and buggies and stay a few days and fish. And my dad just looked forward to the first of June every year to go down. And Mr. Lowell, from the Lowell Observatory, Mr. Doe and my dad, and I don't remember some of the others. But they used to go down and stay with the Thomas family. She would give them room and board for three or four days.

SUSAN ROGER: What kind of road was that then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Huh?

SUSAN ROGER: What kind of road was that then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, just a little, just a funny little road that was just built. I mean, you know, you couldn't go down with anything but a horse and buggy or horseback.

SUSAN ROGER: Did you used to go anywhere on the train? Were they pretty big around here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Did they used to go on the trains?

SUSAN ROGER: Train, yes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well I had a, we had an aunt that lived in Williams. And it was a rare treat to get to go on the train to go up and visit her a few days. And, of course, at that time we didn't have except a horse and buggy so you couldn't go to Williams with a horse and buggy. And she used to invite us to come up and stay. And it was just a rare treat to go on the train to go up to Williams.

SUSAN ROGER: Did people used to go down to the train station when passenger trains-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Every night. Everybody would go down. And there was about two or three trains that came through, maybe two from the east and one from the west, oh, within a couple of hours. There used to be so many passenger trains that went through here. And it was just a, in the summer time it was just an evening _______ used to go down and see who's coming and who was going. And if they didn't see anybody that you knew, why it was fun to see the trains go through. Yes, that was quite- that was about all the excitement we had here (laughs) for a long long time, was to go down to the trains and watch them come in. And I think they have one or two Amtraks now and that's all there is. But there was ah, I imagine there was at least five or six trains from each direction in the early day, 'cause everybody traveled by train.

SUSAN ROGER: Does that mean there were a lot of hotels down there then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, there were the Commercial Hotel that burned last week, and the Bank Hotel, on the corner. That one where I said they had their dances and the picture show and everything. And then the Weatherford Hotel was built later than those two. Those two on Front Street were the first ones. And my mother said when she got off at the depot down here; it was a boxcar. That was the first depot they had was a little boxcar. And it sat right down where the freight depot is now. And I remember, well, when this depot was built. It was quite an affair. They just made quite a deal of it. But I imagine in the early days just having a boxcar for a depot wouldn't be very much. But I guess they didn't need anymore than that.

SUSAN ROGER: Who were your neighbors next door? Were they around just then (?)?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: The ones lived there was an aunt and uncle of mine. They built that house. And then across the street where the Webber Building (ed: State Farm office building on Cherry Street) is, another aunt and uncle, Mr. and Mrs. Ed Greenlaw built that. So we had relatives here. And George Babbitt family lived over here, and the Charlie Babbitt family lived over there, and the Dave Babbitt family over on these streets right around here. And we were all friends. And then the Vail, he had a saloon, maybe you've heard something about the Vail.

SUSAN ROGER: J. A.?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. And they had a big house just about the size of this fraternity up here. And it was a just a board house like this one. And it was torn down, oh, about ten years ago. They were going to build some town houses over there. It was a beautiful old home. And that was the old Vail home.

SUSAN ROGER: What do you remember about J. A. Vail?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, their family was a very prominent family here. And he had a saloon. And he got into some kind of trouble. And he shot himself out here in the barn. And I remember Louise and I coming home from school and there was a big crowd of people out here. And we wondered what it was. And we came in to ask Mama what was going on. And she said Mr. Vail had killed himself. And I don't know why, I don't have any idea why. But anyway he shot himself. And then the family lived over there. They had three girls and two boys, I believe, or one boy, I'm not sure. And they moved to California soon after that, and the place was sold. But they were early time family, too.

SUSAN ROGER: Well can you think of anything else you want to add?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No. I hope that I haven't gone into too much detail with this. But you know you get wound up. Lots of people are interested in old times, and some of them don't care a hoot about it.

SUSAN ROGER: Okay, I'll turn this off then.

END TAPE 3, SIDE 1

Richard Shallman Interview

TAPE 1, SIDE 1

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Your dad came from Maine?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: -from Challis, Maine, what year? 1881.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And he came out here to-?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He came out here to work and he heard and understood there was logging out here- he was a lumberman back there, so he came out here. As I told you, he came as far as Canyon Diablo, that's as far as the train came. Then he came from stage in, and my mother came in 1883, and they met here in Flagstaff. They didn't know each other before; she was from Wisconsin.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What did your mother come out here for?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: She came out because she had a sister and brother, my uncle Jim Lamport, who was County Surveyor here for years and years, and years and he hadn't married. And her sister next to her, Mrs. Treat, who later became Mrs. Treat, was out here, so my mother wanted to come out. Her mother had died, and she just wanted to get away from Wisconsin. And so she was cooking for Uncle Jim Lamport's logging crew and my father happened to be in it. And that's where they met. And she said she thought he was the smart aleckiest man she ever knew, because he used to pull her hair, untie her aprons, and was always trying to get attention so she was kind of mad at him when she first come. She just didn't like anybody as fresh as my Dad was. That's kind of cute to tell about it, then she turned around and married him. And they were married in 1884 here in Flagstaff.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And you were born in 1897?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I was born on 1897, in March.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: So they were married for 10, 12 years before you were born.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, you see, there were 3 other children. Louise and I were next to the youngest ones. My oldest brother, Evan Greenlaw, died in 1926, and then I have a sister, Vera Greenlaw, who lives over in Palo Alto in a retirement home over there. She taught 40 years in the Pasadena schools. And she's still alive. And my brother Allen, just died in January of this year. So there were three older than the twins. And then, Mrs. Knoles, Mrs. Tommy Knoles, came along 8 years later. And they have the- you know, where the Knoles Realty is out there?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is that where the Knoles Bakery is?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, they owned the bakery for a thousand years, well, not quite that long. They owned it for an awful long time, and sold it this year.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: When your parents got married- what was your father's first name?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Charles. Charles Allen Greenlaw and my mother's name was Eleanor Lamport.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Did he homestead right away?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, he didn't homestead until my sister and I were pretty good sized kids. I think in 1909, because he had the sawmill halfway between Flagstaff- I mean, our ranch was halfway between the sawmill and Flagstaff. But there was no business, nothing, just two ranches out there between our homestead and town. But now it's built up solid, all these shopping centers and all. There was two old shacks up there where the stone quarry is now and the El Rancho market. There were two old shacks there, and then down about a half a mile there was an old ranch, they called it the Isabel, and that is the first hill, we used to call it the Isabel Hill. There used to be 3 distinct hills that we used to go over between here and town and they just cut them right down. There used to be Isabel Hill, Stone Quarry Hill, and then the Chicken Ranch Hill someone had a chicken ranch out there and that's what he named them. Shut that off a minute and I'll show you- a little old church and that church was where Sprouse Reitz is down there on Leroux.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Where?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Here's the Methodist church and it's on Leroux and Aspen where the Knoles bakery is on that corner. Course it was moved away.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What is that building there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That's the courthouse.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I'll be darned.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And this house up here is Mr. Switzer’s, and it's still there, but it's all built in solid you see. And our house is right here in these trees.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now, this is north, this way?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, this is north. This old house sat across the street from me. This one is still here. This one was torn down a couple years ago, but you see there's nothing, our house- right here. There was nothing in there when this house was built.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now the Elk's Club is up here some place? Is that where I'd be in this picture if my house would be up here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, yours would be way up yonder.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And, where's the railroad track?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Ah, here's Highway 66 and this is where it went out of town, right there. Isn't that interesting? This is Highway 66 going out of town and that's the little old road we used to travel going out to the ranch. The railroad track is right here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And it came out and went out of town that way.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: There's the same place, see.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: So, there's the depot right there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Let me get a peek see. No, there wasn't any depot down here. When my mother came, there was a boxcar for a depot. Just one track, you can see, just one track here, and possibly there was a boxcar down there. This old building is still there and that old place has been torn down.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Then Flag Lumber Company is probably right about here.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Flagstaff Lumber Company is right over here. I think this old house is still standing. Now some of these old houses- now let’s see, can we see any of the- ah, here’s an old church. That's an old Catholic church that stood over by the cemetery.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That big one isn't there any more.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh no, no, no. My Dad sold that property to the church.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: To the church? That was a pretty church.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Our property went clear back over to Beaver and we had the whole corner there. We had horses, and cows, and burros, and chickens, and dogs, and cats, and everything when we lived here. And we just had a great big backyard. And as you can see, everybody else had chickens and dogs and cats.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: All these sheds.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: All these sheds. And we had a great big barn out here. It was a big, two story barn, nearly as big as our house and it burned one night. And then after it burned, my Dad had already homesteaded out on our ranch, and so-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Did he sell this house?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh no, it's never been out of our hands-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: We've got a bunch more pictures. Where'd you get all these old pictures?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well that’s the thing I'm so crazy about. This is my Dad's sawmill.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That was taken in 1910, I'll be darned. I could have all these pictures copied I'm sure.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And this one, is where- this is what we called Pine Wheel Camp, my mother called it. After my Father got sick and had to be in the hospital for many, many years, why our funds depleted. So she had a lot of little cottages built for summer cottages. In fact there were 30 of them around, and this was a little store and service station down here. Here's our old house, right there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's the homestead house, and that’s _____.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, and look at all the trees. Now they've taken all those trees except these three right here; those right in there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: So this is Highway 66 and it's the same place today, and the tracks are right there-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This was taken in, does it say here, no, but that's when my mother ran this tourist place for years and years and years, but that was the old sawmill-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I don't think I've ever seen that.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, there's nothing there. It's out at Industrial Park that’s where it is. Been gone for years and years.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is that lumber mill out there now?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No. Now this was the first schoolhouse that I was telling you about, first public school in Flagstaff, 1887. And if you want any of these pictures to take to Mr. Smith- I don't think I'll let you take my rolls, I'd like to have him look at them, and see if he can do anything with them. If he'd like to come down and see them, they're the only few in existence, and I'd hate like anything to have something happen to them.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's what I said. I told him if you ever do get copies he would have to come talk to you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, well this is the falls (Chocolate Falls?). Do you know the falls?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No. Where are they?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Do you know where Leupp is?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Leupp? It's east of Flagstaff. It's an Indian village and these are out there and they're higher than the Niagara Falls.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: How far is this from town?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, about 40 miles, I guess. And this was a party; do you know where Berger's Photo Supply is right down the street here, right across from the Depot?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, okay, yeah.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Let me see I'm looking for the little gal that had the party, if I can find her here, this one. And this girl, this woman just died 2 3 years ago, and she was Louise and my ages. Here I am me and Louise, my sister.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Pretty dresses.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, it was a costume party. And everybody came in costume except the Riordan girl; she's still here, too. She's as queer as she looks there. (Laughter) Not nice, nice, nice. That was taken when we were, I guess, 8 years old, 7 or 8, she had a little costume party- do you know where the western store is down here, on Santa Fe?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Causer Saddlery?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, this is the building that this was in. It was an Opera House and it had a skating rink and a dance hall. And this woman's mother owned that building, and I think they still own it, the family still owns that building. She died just 2 3 years ago. These are all Flagstaff kids.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That's you there, huh?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Where's your twin sister? How can she be your twin? She's smaller than you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Just happened to be.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And that's a repeat of the public school, 1887, right?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: 1887. And I don't know if there's anything else. I think somebody's borrowed these and probably had some pictures made. Now here's your courthouse over here, you see, and there's the jail. And this house still stands, that's Mr. Switzer's and it's standing out there all by itself. I remember when we used to herd the cows over there and let them pasture. This old house is there, and here's Emerson School.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's Emerson School. Ok, now I'm getting oriented. There's Highway 66.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This is Highway 66.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Where would Leroux be, and-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Leroux was right down on this corner. This church stood on the corner of Leroux. Let me see now, if anything else, our house is up above here so you can't see it. Ours is right up in here. That's where the Michelbachs lived and they had pigs and cows; everybody did. And the Gregg family lived here, and the Hennessey family lived there, and everybody- This old building is still there, it's still standing. And that used to be the weather- where they had the weather reports. And you know that, of that building that was torn down at the underpass, that burned not very long ago? This is it right here. Humph. And then the court was built around it. This Highway 66, on a little bit.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And that's where the stage came in from Diablo Canyon.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. And there's an old bridge across there. Now you're welcome to use these pictures if you want or need any of them. I had this one made off a man downtown and now they're not letting anybody use it again. I mean, it hangs in one of the offices. I don't know whether it was getting worn or what.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: If you're worried about those pictures, see I figure you'd probably want some copies made.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, I'd like them, but I just hate to have those two get out of my hands until the man could see whether he can have them reproduced.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, I'll have him come over and talk to you. I'll find out for sure.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, this is our house. Now you see, this is all business down in there, here's the Weatherford Hotel, see? And this big house was torn down. It was a great big brick house, as big as our house, and Bledsoe, not Bledsoe, Bleshing? Who built it, but Bledsoe's lived in this big white house next door. There's your college right over there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I'll be darned, you can see the tower. When was this one taken? That's way back.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't know.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It's hard to tell.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: The old house looks very much the same except we built a stairway up here and took off this old side porch. But the house is just the same. I mean we haven't done anything to it except had siding put on. And that was before streets were paved. It's just dirt streets.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They were wide, though, weren't they.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well just the same as they are now. They weren't any different.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Sidewalks?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, we had wooden sidewalks, sure.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: These would all be great.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, and as I say I won't mind that man coming to see them, but I sure don't want to let them to get out of my hands unless he can ______ to do it. Well, of the ranch, it's just one of a kind, and we don't have any more.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh for sure, I wouldn't want to lose-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And the other one I don't know whether there's any around or not.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I don't know if I've seen one.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I've never seen one, never seen one.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: These are my notes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, yeah.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Let's see, father, mother, your husband. Where did your husband come from?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He came from Missouri.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And did he want to do some farming, or what?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, no, no, no. He opened the first Penney's store in Flagstaff in 1917.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That little one you had the picture of?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, J.C. Penney Co. And he opened that, and he said I run him down. I don't think I wanted him that bad to run him down. (laughs). And we were married in 1917. He hadn't been here very long.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Did he need some help running the store?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, I was cashier down there, and then I'd work on the floor. And listen; let me tell you something else. When they opened the Penney’s store, everybody worked six days a week. Some people didn't work, except all the help worked. Helping unpack stuff, and then mark stuff. And we went down pretty near every evening after supper. We'd go home, Dayton used to come home at six, and seven o'clock we'd both go back down and mark and things. They didn't let you have as much help now, you know, to do the things. And when you worked for J.C. Penney, you earned all that you got. And then if you got a big promotion, why you earned it, too. Because they sure were hard to work for, at first, I mean they were demanding at times. And then I had Dayton's sister and her husband worked at Penney's in Winslow, and we were talking about it last year. She was here, and she said, "boy we worked six full days a week and every night." And that was just about it. You'd get Sunday, Sunday 'til noon off, and then you started going down and marking things. It was just a different type of a, there was no forty hour week. And when you left for work in the mornings, you worked 'til twelve, and then you went off for an hour at noon. And you worked 'til six. And then after six, they closed the doors, or six-thirty. Anybody kept coming in, they just keep them open. And then by the time you got everything covered up and got home, why it was just late. But there was no coffee breaks, you never went out of the store after you went except just for your lunch. You know, the stores now you can get off any time you want and just get coffee; no a coffee break which is all right. And I worked for fifty dollars a month. And that was a pretty good wage at that time. And then I hadn't worked more than a month and got a raise to sixty dollars a month. Just think. And then the mills, there were three mills here. And they all paid on the sixth and the twenty-first and the railroad paid on the sixth and the twenty-first. They called it "pay day for everybody". And so we stayed open until seven o'clock every payday night and every Saturday night.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And they just came in and swamped you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well they'd come in and buy. But what I mean is; now the stores close at six. And maybe if they have some extra help, they might stay open a little bit longer. But that was just part of every day life.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: The ah, you said people come in. Did they always come in by train? Was that the only way to get here, pretty much?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well there weren't very many automobiles. I don't think there was any automobiles when my folks- I bet one of the first to get automobiles was ______ _______. And that was, oh gosh, I was just a little bitty kid. I guess it was after we had the ranch up there. I still call it "the ranch". It's Greenlaw Shopping Center.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I wish he'd left it there. It's too bad you let it go.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well of course (interference on the tape) we'd all have to be working hard again still. No, it was nice. But it's lots nicer now to have some income from it, you know.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: You must- pretty good money from there. You own all that property over there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well we own- Oh, I'll take you out and show you. If you want to go with me I won't dump you. I'm a pretty good driver. And I'll take you out and we'll see the old ah, I mean if you care to. See where the rings around the trees and in the property there. And then I thought I'd take you around and show you some of the old houses. You said you wanted to see them. Do you have time?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, I don't have to be done until about three-thirty. I got to go look at my new house.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Where's your-?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: My folks are going to build; buy over in East Flagstaff.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, are they?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They finally found a place they could afford.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Do you know where over there?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Northeast corner some place.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Is it in East Flagstaff or is it up in Greenlaw, or over.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It's north of Greenlaw. But if you want to go take a drive, I'll be glad to. Let me pop this off.

(Ed: Are recording this while driving in the car)

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: We were parked in my sister's yard up on the hill two years ago, and two guys, one going up Leroux, and one going over on Fine, decided to see who could get to the middle of the street the quickest. And they wrecked three cars, mine included. And it was in my sister's yard.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And she had to pay for it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh no, no no no. But when I paid for it, I'll tell you, you don't get much out of your insurance companies.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Tell me about it. I've, well I got pretty good out of my insurance companies this year. I've been swindled for about three things and got my-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: What's the matter with my-?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Probably cold.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I used to always back out, but I don't like to back out. This street's too busy anymore. Come on.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It's pretty cold.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, I don't know when I've had it do that. Maybe had it worked on (undecipherable and lapse in the tape). Nuns _______ but isn't that quite an interesting looking old home. Oh, golly, that's a big house. That belonged to the Dave Babbitt family. Here's one of the old traps (?) here. This one, this used to be the schoolhouse, the Catholic schoolhouse stood right here on this corner.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Right next to the health food store.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, it was over there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, they moved it?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This used to be over there where this building is now; where the school- this used to be the old school house. But they moved; sold it to somebody. This old house was moved from down, right down near the bank when they, or down near where the Methodist Church I showed you on the corner, that was down there, and right next to it. And they moved it up here rather than to tear it down.

If you get tired of old houses and old stuff- I thought, you know, you wanted some of the old old things around here. And ah this is one of the old streets. Look out dog.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What street are we on?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This is Cherry.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: We're headed west.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And ah, now this street was here. What was out this way from town?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, just these houses that’s all. Nothing. There wasn't even any _____.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No farming out there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh no, there was the, ah- Now this old house here, my uncle owned this one and lived there for jillions of years. It was built about the same time that our old house was.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: This little green one here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This little green one here. And there's one or two other old ones up in there that have been moved up. But this one stood here. And then I want to show you the doctor's old home. And there's not an awful lot of them that are still standing on the same property, you know.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They move them around here and there.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Moved them around, but this one is still here. That's this big old fraternity right here. And this was the only doctor here in town. His name was Dr. Brannen. And he lived there, just he and his wife. He had no kids. Great big house.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That was back in the early 1900s?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And now they made a frat house out of it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: It's a fraternity house; has been for quite some time. But I thought maybe you'd like to see that and, ah- I think most of these are new houses or new to-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now this, Emerson School. Is that where the Emerson High School was, same place?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well it wasn't a high school. It was a grade school. It was called, it was Emerson School. That's where I went to school. In the old one, not this one. And I don't know why they ever tore it down. It was a nice great big brick building. Just like they tear everything else down. They just want a little bit fancier, I guess. I don't know. The rooms were big. And it was a well-built big old thing. These old houses are pretty, well- have been built since-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I hate this intersection.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't like this where you can't see around. If there is anything you can see around, I don't mind. Now there are three big brick houses in this block.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Where the bank is?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And three big brick houses over here where Babbitts' is. And they were big houses, kind of like Bledsoes' and mine. You know that type of house, only they were brick, and they tore them all down for this here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Shopping center?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, the shopping center. And they were some of the nicest houses in town. And it's just kind of too bad to tear them completely down, I think.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That church up on the corner there's been built pretty recent? The big stone one.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That was built, my dad sold them that property, and it was built after 1909. I don't remember just when.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And that was your back yard.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That was our yard, uh huh. We had a great big fence around and a great big barn. Our barn was pretty near as big as our house 'cause they had two or three cows and a burro, and a couple of horses, you know. And everybody had chickens, and everybody had cows; they had to. We didn't buy milk in the stores.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They didn't? What did the stores just carry, mainly, ah-?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, they carried groceries; they didn't carry any fresh milk, no orange juice, these things like you have now; any of that stuff. Round Christmas time we'd get oranges. Now this is the old courthouse, and it's been built over. But the main part-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: With the clock up in-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, but you see this front has been built and all this other. And I'm going to take you up by this little old house that's up here still.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, this is that guy's house that you were saying used to herd the cows by.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, up here, Mr. Switzer's. And his house is still there, and it just sets up there by itself. It did, don't now.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now it's all covered with other houses.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, but here it is, see? It's just the same old house.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Right there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Right on the corner here. And they've added on to it a little bit. But when you look at the picture, none of these were here, none of these houses; none of these buildings. Just this little house sitting up on the hill all by itself.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And all of this has been built since. It's almost hard for me to imagine that.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laughs). And, ah-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Babbitts' everything’s (?).

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, there were four families of Babbitts that come. And they all had big families. And they all had families. Nobody wants to leave. They're just like the Greenlaws. They just stick around.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well how many Greenlaws are there now?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, there aren't any Greenlaws here now. Except I had a nephew. And he had the funniest time. He lives out in Greenlaw Park out here. They have a double trailer. And of course there hasn't been any Greenlaw men here for many, many, many years. So he was trying to get his lights and water and gas and things hooked up. So they said, "Now where are you living?" He said, "I'm living out in Greenlaw Trailer Park." "What is your name?" He said, "My name is Richard Greenlaw". "No", he said, "I don't want to know that. I know you're living out in the Greenlaw Trailer Park, but what's your name?" He said, "My name is Richard Greenlaw, R.C. Greenlaw." And then they'd look at him kind of funny. And finally he just had to draw 'em a picture that he was the son of the oldest boy, Greenlaw boy, and had recently moved here from California. He worked for Douglas Air Craft for thirty years over there. But, ah, that's the only Greenlaw there is. My brother, he just had the one boy, and my other brother had two little girls. So there's no Greenlaws, you see.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I'll bet there's something else from the girls.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And then there's a niece of mine who goes to school up at the college, is a cute thing, too I’ll tell you. I was telling her the other night, you know you came up, and I said, "Oh there's the nicest kid here today. And I was telling him about you." And she said, "Well, maybe I can meet him some time, Aunt Mary." And I said, "Well I just think that would be wonderful."

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, sure. I'd be glad to say hi if she’s a cute thing.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But, ah, this was a little old one road, dirt road going out here when we used to come with our horses and buggies. And then after, we had one of the first cars in town.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is this one of your hills?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This was the hill, and we used to go up over the top. See that little house back in there?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well the roads went over the hills. And they were hills clear over to the railroad track. You see this has all been cut down. And this was "Stone Quarry Hill", and there were two old men that used to live over here, and they worked the stone quarry. And you see the Weatherford Hotel and the school and the churches have been built out of this. And it's a big quarry up there. They've got lots of sandstone still. This other hill was where that little old house sits up there, it came over, you see they've cut all this hill down. This used to be slanting down.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, they cut that right out of the side of the hill.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, they just cut it right out. But all of our road was up over the hills. And there were three of them. This was Isabel, and that was just the Stone Quarry, and there was a "Chicken Ranch Hill"; I forgot where it was. But it wasn't as big as these. But they were pretty good-sized hills, too, for an old horse and buggy. And there was that place at the stone quarry. And I'll show you where this other place was. And there were only two places between our place and town. And, ah, one with just two old bachelors lived up there, and then there was a family lived down here. They were cattle people. And their place is right where this Twilight Motel is; only it set back further. It was just a little old log cabin with a few out buildings. And they had stock, like everybody else. These were farms. This was a homestead. The man who homesteaded this the same time my family homesteaded out here. And he went broke trying to raise beans.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Trying to raise beans?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah they raised beans here. First they raised grains and potatoes. Oh, this is wonderful potato country. But there were just a hand full of people here. And he homesteaded. Got his homestead rights. And then he sold out and went with the Standard Oil Co. And he finally wound up to be a wealthy man. Now our property here is where the Standard Oil goes.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Starts right here at the Standard station?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Right here, that's on our property. And it only goes down here to the Gulf.

END TAPE 1, SIDE 1, BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE 2

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Then your property went from down at the Gulf station right up to this end, right here at the Cedar Pine Shopping.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Cedar Pine.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I'm going to have to ask you, re-ask some of the questions.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Sure. Now this all belongs to Knoleses back in here. I sold my five acres that my mother gave me to the Knoles. And my sister that isn't married sold hers, so they have fifteen acres in here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: (whistles)

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: So they still own all that in there. And, ah, that's Bob and Marshall and Tom Knoles. And they're the ones that had the bakery until just last fall.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And how long have they had this property? Not too long, huh?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: You mean leased?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: The Knoles.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh they've had it, oh gosh all the boys were raised down here. They've had it since, oh, Eleanor and Tom were first married. They used to get back and forth in the snow and all with an old horse and buggy or an old truck to the bakery. ________ _________. This is a beautiful home out here. You can't see it 'cause it's got so many trees and things around it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, that's pretty.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Lovely old home. And, ooh the flowers and ______ come here. But this is wooded here, is all Knoles'. And then down here, as I say, this belongs to my twin sister's kids, Jack Beamer and the Rawlinsons. And they own clear back over there to where you see all those houses. They have five acres here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And they've just left it sit right now.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well they've got some real good nibbles; they've had some good nibbles. This was just built two years ago. This was built just this year.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah that was just put up.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This Valley National. They had one down there, and it was too small. They had to-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And this was all potatoes and wheat at one time.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, except now when I showed you those pictures of those cottages, they were some all around over here. We did have the fields and this was just solid with trees. I mean there was a tree practically for every cottage. In fact one time some folks came down, they'd rented a house up here, and then they'd gone out and come back. And the lady said, "I can't find my house." And I said, "Oh? What number is it?" And she said, "Well I don't know what number it is, but it's by a big pine tree."

RICHARD SHALLMAN: (laughs)

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well every one of them was by a big pine tree. Every house that my mother had was out by a big pine tree. So that wasn't much help. So I looked on the register and found what house they were in. But it was kind of funny when she said; "well it was up by a big pine tree".

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Wow, all these trees have all been here as long as you have?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, longer. And there's the Greenlaw Mobile Park. That's where my nephew lives over in there. But I wanted to show you this.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: This I want to see. I want to see the rings in the trees.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, the rings in the trees.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And this is right about where the old homestead set.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well this was ____ exactly where it was. Barns were right out here; the big barns. And we had potato cellars and so forth and so on. And, ah, our garage was right there by that old tree. Used to be a little tree.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They probably cut it down.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, see there it is.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: There it is. I'll be darn.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: These trees all have rings on them. And they were made by the- you can see the one on the other one, too. But they had the blacksmith, and they have screws that long, you know. We used to tie our horses out here. And then there were other trees, too. But they left that one, I mean these and that one, and that's all. And our house stood right here. By the- where we were close to the trees for our- you know.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Uh huh. Well I'll be darned.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: So it doesn't look like the old homestead.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No. But the trees are there anyway.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laughs). Well I was glad. And they're sorry they didn't leave more, 'cause I think a park with trees in- And then we have five acres across the- over there where that trailer park is. It just happened to be part of our homestead. We never did farm it. But, ah, it's been rented to that trailer park. Here's one of the first motels that was put up right here. And then the Americana. But I just thought I'd swing out here and let you see.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well that's great. Were most of the farming lands over on this end of town?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, there wasn't. There was only this big ranch and this one. And then quite a few on out on 89. Out towards Sunset Crater there's quite a few ranches out in there. But there's a big stretch there that didn't have anything. Lots of timberland. And then after you go north on the Grand Canyon highway, there are many ranches. I say many; there's quite a few ranches out there. Some of them have been taken up with homes already. But ah, there were several.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And they all- was there much cattle business out here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, there were quite a few cattle men here. They'd have their cattle out in the country. And then they'd usually take them to the low lands in the winter just the same as they do now. It's no winter place for cattle.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No. I suppose Flagstaff wasn't too much cattle oriented.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And, ah, quite a number of very, very wealthy sheep people would drive their sheep up in the spring, and then they would take them back down to around Buckeye and Mesa and Tempe, and put them in those fields down there. But ah, and they do that still. Now this is where that one other ranch was, I mean ______ right there. And they had just a little garden spot, but this man raised quite a few cattle. Their boys were broncobusters.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And this is Stone Quarry Hill, here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, this is what we call the "Isabel Hill". And that's Isabel. Their names were Isabel. I guess that's why we named it Isabel there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Ranchers there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Uh huh. And the people that lived there's names was Isabel. And ah, but we went over these hills. We didn't go down. This has all been cut down. And then this next one up here by the, where the stone quarry is, that was called the "Stone Quarry Hill".

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is there still a stone quarry back in there?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yes. I'd take you in and-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, up by where that red truck is?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: All of that. That's all just, that's just solid rock, if anybody could cut it out of there. It's just like it is, in layers, you see.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And that's the malapais that they make all of that?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No. That's- it's not malapais, it's sandstone that the Courthouse is made of; the school. But it's too costly. It's all hand work, you see, whenever they do it, it's all hand work.

Now we went up over that hill, and, ah, our road was just about as wide as this here. And it was dirt, you know, just like this, like you saw on the picture. Yeah, there's quite a big quarry up there still, but they haven't worked it. I don't think they've worked it for forty years or more. Oh, and by the way. My mother- my husband was working in Sacramento. He was a shoe salesman at one time. And ah, I, of course, moved up there. We lived there four years. My mother visited me. And we went down to the post office and she said, "Oh, Mary, this sand stone is just like the sandstone that the Courthouse was made of and the college and all. I wonder where in the world they quarried that?" And I said, "Why, I don't know." You know, a young kid. It didn't matter too much where they quarried it. So she said, "I think I will go in and inquire." So she asked the postmaster if he knew where the sandstone had come from that the building was made out of. And he said, "Well I don't know, but if you'll come back tomorrow, lady, I'll look up and find out. Because I'd kind of like to know, too." It came from Flagstaff, Arizona. It was shipped over to Sacramento, and the post office was made out of our quarry here. But wasn't that funny! She just kind of recognized these as being the same kind of stone. And she wondered where there was another quarry like it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's a long ways to haul all that stone.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, but it's what they wanted, I guess. And it's just too costly to use it now. It's all hand tooled, you know. There used to be old stone masons here that could do it, but gosh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, what did it cost to build a house back then?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't have any ideal. (sic)

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Not very much.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I don't have any idea. I don't have any idea. I just know ours was built when I was born. I didn't have anything to do about it. (laughs)

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Can't remember much back then.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No. I'm going to take you up here on Santa Fe and show you another funny old house. Is that my car?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Can't tell. I think it's probably that truck.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I hope it's a truck instead of me. But anyway I'll take you back out to where I got the- I had, not an overhaul, yeah, a tune-up the other day.

There's a funny old house up here. And an old German woman lived there. And, well she lived there with three different husbands. And she poisoned two of them. And they didn't find out. The first husband, he just died mysteriously, and so they buried him; thought nothing about it. Then she married again. And it wasn't too long until he-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Up and died.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Died. So they- (static and tape fades)

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now this is the western wear shop where your picture was taken from.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Right over here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh, by the Camera Corral.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, that’s the Camera Corral. And that's one of the first buildings, well you can tell by looking at it. It's one of the first buildings that was ever built here. And the bank was right in here, one of the banks. That's why they called it the "Bank Hotel". And those old rooms up stairs are funny, funny, funny. But it was in this place right there where our pictures were taken.

But I was telling you about this old German woman. She talked so broken, but worked like a man. And so anyway, after her second husband disappeared, why they performed a autopsy, and they found that he had been poisoned. And I don't know what they ever did. I don't think they ever did anything with her 'cause she lived up here a long, long time after that. But Louise and I were always kind of afraid when we were kids to go by this old house. 'Fraid she'd gather some of the kids in. And (laughs) isn't it funny, the funny things that have happened.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Kids are always afraid of something.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, we were afraid. And she was a good old woman, I'm just sure she didn't want her husbands. I guess you could get 'em whenever you wanted a husband.

And this old house here on the corner was the old under- taker's house. And golly, Louise and I used to run like air when we'd see him coming. He had a funny old mustache and his nose was always running. And he wore his glasses down there, and he had all these red eyes and things.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It's not much of an occupation.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Did I go by the old house? Sure, I went by the old house with out- Well I'll go up on Observatory Hill and show you. This old house is one of the old, old, old ones from down there at Vandevier corner where that place burned. And they moved it up here just to get it out. They've moved a lot of the old houses. And, ah, somebody'd buy a lot and buy the old house rather than have it torn down. And this used to be a heck of a hill to go up with our little old Ford. The gas tank was underneath the seat. And it just didn't get enough gas. And we'd go "chug, chug, chug" up here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: How long has the observatory been here?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: It’s been here since the early eighties. Have you ever been up here before?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah I was up here once last summer. It's been here since 1880?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. It's a pretty spot. I don't know there's a plaque up there. And Dr. Colton, not Dr. Colton, Dr. Lowell's remains are up here. And it publicly tells when he founded it, I don't know. But it's been here since I can remember.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well is your dad probably buried here in Flagstaff, too?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, he's buried in Phoenix. He died in Phoenix and in those days- Oh _____ _____.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: There it is.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I'll get up here and turn around. But ah, he died in Phoenix. My mother was- he'd been sick for a long, long time. And we'd had him in a retirement home, and it took all the funds. And that's when she started building those little cottages out there. And, ah, we just didn't have enough money to have the body sent here, which we always felt regretful for. But, anyway, after you're gone you're gone. But I don't know whether it tells up here anywhere-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I can always check up on that.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. Yes.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's a fact that's been written down for sure.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh sure. But now, in that old building here, Dr. Lowell's remains are there. And there's just a big steel casket in there. You can see it. And there's probably- there are some things, plaques on the side. So, sometime if you're up here on your motorcycle go ahead and look. It'll tell you when it was built.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: This is the building I have a picture- the one right there.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: These are, a lot of these. That's a new building; here's a new one. Oh, they've got lots of new buildings up here. And the astronauts did a lot of running around up here. I think they do a lot of work for the astronauts down in here. But ah, you know that picture I showed you, taken in 1907? That one where I showed you the little old road? That was taken from up here on the observatory in 1907. Then when you look at the view from here, and then look at that little old picture with the little handful of houses down there, you can just understand how the place has grown in the last few years.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What I should do is get a picture from up here and blow it up to the same size as that. That would be perfect.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, that would be something, wouldn't it? Only you just couldn't possibly get it unless you had one of these cameras that just went clear around. Because it comes way- see that's the college there. And there's the shopping center up there where that Yellow Front is.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now where the little road used to go out of town, there's all sorts of stuff.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well that's where the little road went out of town is this road right here. Don't look like the same little road. But here's the old Catholic Church, you see, down in back of our property there? That's where you can tell where I lived, but I lived over on the other side of it. You can't see it, trees in there. And then it goes on and on and on out this way. And of course when you get over the hill and go out to Greenlaw, why there's just- I think east Flagstaff is just as big as Flagstaff is in here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It's getting pretty close.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes. And it's awful pretty from up here at night.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah, I've been up here.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Have you? Yeah, that's old Railroad Avenue as they used to call it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Now they call it "Santa Fe".

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's what I'll have to do. I'd like to get a picture from up here and compare it with that one.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But that's a nice picture. And I don't mind having mine reproduced. I ask the man who owned the picture. He used to be my fire agent, you know. And ah, I was down there one day paying the premium or something, and I saw it hanging on his wall. And I said, "Oh Ted, could I get a picture taken off of that?" And he said, "Yeah". And so he let me take it over to Trox's. And I had that picture made off of it. And then somebody saw my picture, and they said that they asked him if they could have a picture reproduced. And he said no, that they didn't want it anymore. So I don't know whether sometime, somebody had borrowed it. And it ah- Well maybe it's just an old old picture, and they don't want to let it get out of the hand like I do with mine.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's probably it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That's probably it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, I'll tell you, if we borrowed them to go copy, we sure wouldn't want to wreck them up for you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, no. I ah, Tommy Knoles was in the legislature, my brother-in-law. He was in the legislature for so many many years. And he said he felt that the highway department might have a way of making those long, long pictures. He would look into it. But I haven't talked to him lately.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, what these guys are thinking of doing is taking three pictures of it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, and then putting them together.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh. That would probably be the best way.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And it would be cheaper, too.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: This is the old house I was telling you about.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh. The little stone?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Where the woman lived. And she and her husband built that. They didn't have any help either; they just built it themselves. And she's the one that poisoned her husbands. (laughs) At least they said she did.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That little stone house.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Mm. It isn't really little. I think there's about ten or twelve rooms. It's kind of a big one, two story. Well I'll scoot on home now. I've told you about all the old places I think around Flag, just about.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's pretty comprehensive. The only thing is anybody who listens to this tape is never going to figure out where anything is.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well I don't doubt it. Because, after all-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I'm going to have to just go by and put addresses on them.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And ah, this old church has been there. I was in the second grade when my second grade teacher was married in this church. And it had just been built. And, ah, she invited her whole school class to her wedding and let us have the first two rows. Wasn't that nice? The first formal wedding I ever went to. And, ah, so it's an old old church. Been added onto a lot. But, ah, she was a member of this church. Oh, I thought she was the prettiest bride I- Well I hadn't seen very many brides. But I thought she was the prettiest bride I ever saw in my life. She had fiery red hair, and lots of it. And, ah, we all liked her real well. Maybe that's why we just liked her so well. And out here, just the other side of the high school where these schools are in here, that was all farmland. That was a- a sheep man had that property, and he used to raise lots of crops. And that ah, out where Navajo Road and all of the Apache, and all those, that was all farmland, too. So it's got a lot of farming around here.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Mainly potatoes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Potatoes and wheat and oats. Because everybody raised their own chicken feed and stock feed. And then potatoes were just about like the potato you get up in Idaho. They were delicious. No, I kind of wish my dad hadn't sold this property to the Catholics here, because that would have still been in our yard if they hadn't of. But, ah, I don’t-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, weren't these cross streets in there at the time?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Just the same, just the same as they are now. Only they were just little dirt streets. And, ah, there were three big pine trees in the street between Beaver and Leroux, right up in front of these buildings there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And they left them there in the street?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, they were left. And, ah, when we owned this, right about where this little tree is that's growing in the priest's yard. There was a great big pine tree there, and it was right where the sidewalk used to go. And of course first we used to have wooden sidewalks. And so dad built a sidewalk around it, rather than cut the tree, built the sidewalk around it. And then when they started paving the sidewalks, why, ah-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Cut it down.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: They, ah, cut it down, yeah. But it was right where the street was. It was out here in the street. Then there was a tree here and a couple of trees over here, big trees. Great big pine trees. And up in the street where my sister lives, there was four or five big pine trees up there and just a great big, big rock pile. And now it's one of the nice streets that go through (ed: tape ends abruptly)

END TAPE 1, SIDE 2, BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE 1

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And, ah, we wouldn't mind paying, you know awesome (?).

RICHARD SHALLMAN: From what I've heard this town is glad to go to Phoenix to get a copy of it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well that's fine that’s just fine. You know. Whatever, you know, whatever they want to do. But, ah, we did look into it. My brother took my picture over at the coast one time. And they told him over there that it would be a tremendous amount to try to get a picture this big and also down here. And so we just sort of gave up on it. And this is the only one, you know.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: From what I understand, you just going to set it out, and you've got a special camera that is going to take a picture here, a picture here, picture here and put them together.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And, I've done a little photography and can't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That sounds reasonable. And I don't know why somebody else hasn't, you know, thought of that. But ah, anyway, it'll be fine.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What I wanted to bring up today- making soap. It's just sort of an idea I had.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laughs)

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Because I don't know what types of things that you had then that you had to make yourself.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, we didn't have to make soap. We could buy soap. I mean you could buy soap. Is this thing going now?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Just a little ______ _____.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, anyway we can buy soap.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Don't worry about it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But we always had so much extra grease, as you call it. We used to have bacon or ham or something. And everybody raised hogs, you know, and they had plenty of grease. And my mother, being as thrifty a person as she was, and why buy soap when you could make soap.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: It takes a couple of weeks.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, it takes quite a little while. But then, shoot, what's time to hogs (?). (laughs) So anyway we used to strain the ah, put the grease and get it hot and then put it through cloths so that there wouldn't be any sediment in it from the meat, you know. And if the grease was from bacon or anything, it never was as pretty and white as if it was just lard, you know, that you used. But it didn't make any difference. But it was good soap. I used to make soap all the time.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: This is what- see my neighbor- I ran out of soap one day, and I was knocking on doors trying to borrow soap. And he finally said, "Well here, I got some home made stuff. Try this."

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Now who was this?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: The guy that lived next to me in the dorm.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, oh in the dorm, oh. So people, I guess, do make soap still.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: His mom did.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well good.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: And this was stuff that she actually put lanolin in along with it.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Really. You know the lanolin I don't think had even been heard of when I was a- But, ah, I was telling my sister, I said you were coming down. She said, "Does he want to know how to make soap?" We just kind of laughed about it, 'cause nobody makes soap. And I don't think there was very many people a few years ago that made soap. But ah, of course, I'm one of the old clan, so I make- It was supposedly good for washing clothes. It had lye in it. It didn't hurt your hands.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I use it in the shower.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, yeah. Is that boy a Mormon boy, by chance?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I don't think so.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: You know they save everything. And they are thrifty people, I'll tell you. I have some relatives that have married into Mormon families, and gee, they are thrifty people. They look after their own, and there's not any bread lines around, you know, or any unemployment. They seem to take care of their own.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They've got a huge stockpile from what I understand.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. Everybody gives to the church. And they have these big storage houses. And I had a Mormon girl that lived in one of my apartments back here. And she used to live in Salt Lake. And she said that she used to can a lot. And she'd take her jars, no, no she didn't either, she didn't have jars. They didn't do it in jars. They did it in cans. But she would take her fruit to the cannery. And they'd all help. All of them would have to help peel the fruit, you know that sort of thing. And then they would can it right at the canneries. They had men that took care of the canneries. And I believe that whoever took the food in to be canned either gave one third or one fourth to the church. And then they took the rest home. But that's the way they get their stockpiles is each one give the certain amount. If she had one hundred jars, why twenty-five of them went to the church, and they put them in the stockpile. But I think that's a good deal because-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I bet you used to do a lot of canning here, too.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I still do.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Do you?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Sure.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: My mom used to can a lot. But we haven't had a garden for a few years.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I ah, I don't can vegetables anymore, but I will make lots of jams and jellies and things like that. And I used to make pickles. I loved to make pickles. But ah, ooh, I don't use that many pickles anymore.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What, do you use short cucumbers or what?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well we used to, I'll tell you we'd go up to ah, you know where Snowflake is? Snowflake is south of Holbrook. You know where Holbrook is down here?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yeah.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And it's in Mormon country. And, you know Mormons live up in there. And they raise cucumbers for the Arnold Pickle people from Phoenix. And they have the regular, you know, just a little, but ah, and we'd just, first spring we'd go up and buy four or five lugs of pickles and then come home and make them. But ah, it's fun to make them, but I don't need that many anymore. You know, by myself.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I like dill pickles.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I love dill pickles, too.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I like chili dill pickles packaged with some chilies.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah that's good. Yes it's good. I didn't make as many. I used to make dills a little bit, but I usually make sweet jumps (?) and bread and butter. And there's lots of _________.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What's bread and butter?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well those are those sweet ones that are cut just about this, they call them bread and butter pickles.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Oh yeah, sliced?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Sliced and they're kind of sweet.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They're pretty good.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: They are good.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well what I was wondering about is you mentioned that you couldn't buy so much, like fresh fruit in the stores?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: But, could you buy a lot of clothes, or did you have to make those up, or did you buy the material or what?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh I was never much of a seamstress. My mother used to have, years ago, she'd have a lady come in for maybe about two weeks and make clothes for all of us kids. She'd buy bolts of material. Everybody made their own children's clothes. Here comes my sister now.

(Louise Beamer enters.)

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: We're making clothes right now. What's your last name?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Shallman.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Shallman. This is my sister Miz Beamer. She's my twin sister.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: You don't look quite alike.

LOUISE BEAMER: You don't think so?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: She's the oldest, and I'm the biggest I'll tell you that. (laughs). Sheldon, huh?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No, Shallman. S h a l l m a n.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh, Shallman. I used to have a friend, I used to have a friend named Laura(?) Shallman. The girls and we were- no we're all making soap.

LOUISE BEAMER: Oh, you're not making (?) soap.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: We gave up soap, and I got out the clothes for awhile.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He was wondering in the early days if we made all of our own clothes or whether you'd could go down to the store and buy them. I said Mama used to buy bolts of material and have a woman come in to help sew.

LOUISE BEAMER: Yes, Mama had six kids, and she didn't have time to sew much.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: You couldn't go into a store like you can today and buy everything, could you?

LOUISE BEAMER: Oh no, you couldn't get everything like you can today, I'll tell you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No you couldn't get everything. But, ah, Babbitts', Babbitts' came here in 1886.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: 1886?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, and they opened a store down here not too long after that. I think it was mostly grocery, probably groceries and hard ware, and you know such, general stuff. But they've been in business all that time.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: They sold groceries?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Everything, uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: This is going to sound like a dumb question, but I have no sense of when electricity came here. What, did you have refrigerators and everything?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, no, no. We didn't have, you mean electric refrigerators?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, any refrigerator.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, we didn't have any.

LOUISE BEAMER: We had our, we have a basement in this house, and we used to keep our milk and butter down in there.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Potatoes, canned fruit and all that stuff, down in the cellar. No, we didn't have- And then after we moved out to the ranch, why we had a little wooden ice box, and we used to buy ice in town. Babbitts' had an ice plant here. And in the summer time when it was kind of warm, we'd buy ice and put it in our little old box.

(Problem with the tape and sound fades for some of the conversation.)

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: My husband was first manager of Penney's from 1917.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is it in the same place it is now?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, no, no. It was down on Aspen. You know where the Moore Drugstore is on the corner of Aspen and Santa Fe, not Santa Fe.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, I say Aspen and San Francisco is what I mean. Oh it's on the corner right across from Babbitts'. It was down that street.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well is Babbitts' where it is now, too?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well Babbitts' was-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: I got an old picture of Babbitts' years ago. I don't have it handy right now, but I'll look for it. I mean the street in early days.

LOUISE BEAMER: My mother had the first vacuum cleaner in town. And it was a funny tank affair. It was heavier than heck. It was, well it had funny colored wheels on the side.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Was it a Hoover?

LOUISE BEAMER: No, it wasn't a Hoover. I don't even remember the name, but it was electric and these funny big cans. It stood about that high.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: About two to three feet high.

LOUISE BEAMER: Yeah, and it was heavier-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And the dirt went in those cans didn't it?

LOUISE BEAMER: Uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: You remember when it was that you got it?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, but we were living here in this house.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: What'd you need a vacuum cleaner for?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well we had carpets.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: But they had neat carpet sweepers.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well we had a carpet sweeper.

LOUISE BEAMER: Every spring you took up your carpets and put them out on the clothesline and beat the carpets. Had regular carpet beaters.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laughs) Everytime we went by, we were supposed to beat it. _____ _____. All the kids had to beat the carpets. Oh yeah.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Let me see. This is my note pad. I'm always reading out of my note pad. I've got to get into this people situation. I remember you told me the little story about talking to the girl at the super market. Do you remember that?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, I wondered if it was always like that here in Flagstaff.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No (emphatically). I told him about this girl that I asked her how long she'd been here. And she turned around and looked at me and gave me a dirty look. I said I was born ______. And she gave me another dirty look and didn't say a word.

LOUISE BEAMER: No it used to be-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Everybody was friendly.

LOUISE BEAMER: And if a new family would move in town, well then all the ladies would go call on this new family and.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Sure make them acquainted and make them welcome.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, and in the early days, there was only one doctor in town, and if anybody got sick, why some of the older women that knew how to take care of kids would come in and help, and-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Like one big family.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, they were much more friendly then.

LOUISE BEAMER: I remembered my mother telling about there was no undertaker. I guess there was an undertaker. Anyway she helped lay out a Mexican woman that had died. And she said that was a- she just couldn't hardly stand to do that. I mean it- you know, made her- And of course they didn't embalm in those days. They buried you the next day after.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: I think it's better to just bury people.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But, I don't know.

LOUISE BEAMER: And the old cemetery used to be up on the side of Observatory Hill.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Up where we went?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, uh huh. Down there where those, where the- oh, I took him up there. I took him up where just bout where the-

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Where the park grounds are?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah. And the tennis courts. They were all there. And they tried to move all the graves over to the cemetery when they abandoned that. But I imagine that there were lots of graves that didn't have any markers that were, that are still up there that nobody knows.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Playing tennis on top of them.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, all right, and they don't know the difference. But I imagine there's lots of them, because I'm sure there were lots of people died here that didn't have anyone that, anybody to put a marker on for them. Don't you think?

LOUISE BEAMER: Oh yes, I imagine.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: But they got as many of the graves as they could and moved them over there.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: You mentioned the Mexican woman. Were there a lot of Mexican people in Flagstaff?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Well, there were, there weren't as many as there are now.

LOUISE BEAMER: Not in proportion to the number of people here, but there was always Mexicans here.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And there was only two colored families when we were kids. And we went to school with the kids. And they were relatives, though weren't they?

LOUISE BEAMER: Yes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Only two colored people. And gosh _____ _____ _____.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Yes, and the whole place _____ _____.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes, and over towards the mill there's a _____.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, back in the early 1900s, were there a lot of minority problems, or did everybody just kind of get along?

LOUISE BEAMER: Everybody got along. They didn't know anything about this minority business. Everybody was equal.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: That's kind of what I wondered about. The Indians, too, and the Chinese and all?

LOUISE BEAMER: & MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yes.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: My mother told a story about when she was first married. She lived up in what we call "Mill Town". Where the old mill used to be up here.

LOUISE BEAMER: Just about up where "Big Bobs" is.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, right in that area.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: "Bob's Big Boy"?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: That's where my dad and mother had a little house. And my dad was working for the mill. And, my mother had my oldest brother. He was just a baby. And she said she was working one evening, and just happened to look up, and there's some Indians peeking in the window. They didn't have any window blinds then. You know you couldn't find things like that here. She said it nearly scared her to death. Seeing these two Indians looking in the window at her, and she was there alone with the baby, and she didn't know what to do. And pretty soon Dad came home, and she told him about it. And he said, oh, the Indians wouldn't hurt her. And they never did. They were just curious, just lookin' in the window to see what was going on in there. But it scared her.

LOUISE BEAMER: You were talking about Chinese. There used to be Chinese laundries here, you know. Chinese always had laundries. And one time my mother found a purse. As she was coming downtown, she found a purse that had four hundred fifty dollars in it. And they inquired around. They didn't have any newspapers in those days. And she inquired around, and it belonged to a Chinese man. And he wanted to give her half of it. And she wouldn't take any. She said no. And for years and years and years, every Chinese New Years, he would always send us or bring big boxes of Chinese nuts. Do you know what they're like? Have you ever eaten Chinese nuts?

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Is that same _______?

LOUISE BEAMER: Leeche.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, you can't get them here.

LOUISE BEAMER: They have a soft kind of funny shell. And then he would- he brought her-

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Chinese lilies.

LOUISE BEAMER: Bolts and bolts of Chinese silks and pongee. That's when pongee was so popular for dresses.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He don't know what pongee is. It's a Chinese silk.

LOUISE BEAMER: It's a silk made by the Chinese. And always lots of Chinese lilies, the big bulbs. And we always had Chinese lilies. You put them in water, you know. Very similar to some of these bulbs out here that are blooming now.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Sounds like you had a lot of time to just do nothing.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No.

LOUISE BEAMER: You had to do everything. You didn't have any time left.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: You didn't have anybody to work for you. You had to do everything.

LOUISE BEAMER: And when you had to make your clothes, and you had to do your washing and ironing, and do everything.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And get places with the horse and buggy. You didn't get there very fast.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Suppose that slowed things down a little bit, huh?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Oh yeah. We didn't know any different. That's was the first mode of travel. We were glad to have a horse, weren't we, Louise?

LOUISE BEAMER: Yeah.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, we used to live here, and we walked up to the college to school. And we'd go up in the mornings, come home for lunch, go back at noon, come home in the evening. Then if there's anything doing up there, we'd go. Nobody thought anything about it. My gosh, you can't get kids to walk two blocks now.

LOUISE BEAMER & MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laugh)

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Let's go back with walking from there. Did you both go to school up there?

LOUISE BEAMER & MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, uh huh.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well was it a college then or a high school?

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: We went to high school up there.

LOUISE BEAMER: It was a year in a high school.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: We graduated from eighth grade up at the Emerson School here, which is up on Aspen, and then we went to high school. But, you see, there was only a handful of kids up there. They were glad to have a high school, weren't they, Louise? They didn't have enough for college.

LOUISE BEAMER: Four years if you took the academic course and five years if you took the teacher's course.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He'd talked to Tommy. I told him Tommy took the pictures the other day, you know, and he said he talked to Tommy.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Talked to him about picking them up Monday.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: And, ah, they said they would take pictures in sections, and then put them together, and make some for our family. And that will be nice, won't it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Well, I'm not exactly sure, but from what I understand, that's what they'll do. Anyway they'll get the pictures, and they'll come out real good quality.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: Yeah, well we'd like to have some.

LOUISE BEAMER: I have a real interesting- I have one of the catalogues from the Northern Arizona Normal School. It's 1915.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: Ooh, I'd like to get that.

LOUISE BEAMER & MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: (laugh)

LOUISE BEAMER: I'd like to show you, but you can't have it, I'll tell you.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: No, you don't mean to have it.

RICHARD SHALLMAN: No.

MARY GREENLAW DRAINE: He'll look at it. I'll tell you what he's doing. He's writi