DAVID ESTRELLA INTERVIEW

Los Recuerdos Oral History Project

Interview 68-21

[BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[Tr. note: All spellings are phonetic.]

Today's date is 10/30/97. The time is 4:15, and I'm conducting an oral history for Northern Arizona University, Special Collections and Archives. Today I'll be doing David Estrella.

Muñoz: What's your address, Mr. Estrella?

Estrella: My current address is 1800 North Main.

Muñoz: And your date of birth?

Estrella: July 18, 1927.

Muñoz: Who were your parents?

Estrella: My parents are Cruz Rodriguez Estrella. My mother is Delores Chavez Estrella.

Muñoz: Where were they from?

Estrella: My dad was born in El Paso in 1903. My mother was born in Chilili, New Mexico, in 1907.

Muñoz: Did they come here? When?

Estrella: My folks were coming toward Arizona when my dad was born. They had already crossed the border, and their first stop was in Cosnino. There used to be a sawmill there. My grandmother put up a little restaurant and would make sandwiches for the men -or tacos, as we call them, not sandwiches -tacos and stuff like that, for the men. They called it Bordad. So she did that until they got to Flagstaff maybe in 1904, 1905, when maybe the sawmill folded. So they come to work here. My older uncles and my grandmother -I called her "mother." So it was around 1904, 1905 when they got here to Flagstaff, and they settled at -well, right there on San Francisco Street. And that's where I was born. I was born at 416 South San Francisco Street. My grandmother was a curandera, also a midwife. She used to take care of la sindal, which is the barrio. Everybody around there, she used to take care of them if any sickness came by, midwife. I remember when I was small, she'd get me up, three or four o'clock in the morning. Somebody's having a baby, and I had to go with her, because there was snow, and she wasn't a young woman -she was quite old then. To me, she was quite old. That's what I remember. Well, there's a lot more I remember about my grandma and myself. I remember the neighborhood that we lived in was, I guess, the happiest I've ever been in my life, because we did so much. We'd go out to the woods and we'd borrow, steal, or ________. So we'd go up there and kill some birds and eat 'em. We had a ball, all of us. There was Willie Cerra, there was so many kids around there. I can't name them all right now, but there was so many kids, and we all did the same thing: play marbles and do little things. River de Flag -it ran. I mean, water was always running there, summertime. Wintertime, it'd freeze. You would naturally skate, if you had skates. But in summertime we'd go down where the river turns up towards the sawmill, and there was a place they called the little dam. The water was clear. We'd get in there and we'd swim. It wasn't no bigger than this room here. But around the bend, they called it the big dam, and it was really huge. We used to make rafts and raft around. Okay, other things that I remember when I was a kid, was going out and looking for water snakes and squirrels and frogs and horny toads and stuff like that. We'd take 'em over here to Teachers College, and they would buy 'em. They would buy 'em for maybe twenty-five cents a piece. They'd use 'em in the biology classes. So we made our little money. I mean, it wasn't too much -enough to buy candy. Five cents of candy was a lot of candy. You couldn't eat it. And then we'd go over to Doña Christina and get it. Doña Christina had a little store. Don Rigas Ramirez had a store. Dos Sabador Mier had a store, but Doña Christina was a little cheaper, so we'd go over there and buy our candy over there. And we asked for the pelon. You know what a pelon is?

Muñoz: That's a Mexican candy, right?

Estrella: No! Pelon is your little extra. So she always had some candy up there, it was a little harder and a little older, but she'd give us a little more of it. I remember that very well about what they used to do, the stores used to do. We were kind of scared of going over to Mr. Mir's, because there were kind of.... But we had to go. We had to go because he had fresh meat and my grandmother or my mother would say, "Well, here's twenty-five cents, get me twenty-five cents of beef steak." I guess that's all they knew, beef steak. So I don't know what -I know they made some good food, though. Other things that I remember. Well, I remember very, very vividly, in 1933 or '34, I'm not sure, but it rained, it rained like it rained this year. It rained a lot, it rained a lot. Okay, and all of a sudden there was a lot of water on the streets. I mean, it was a flood. What happened? River de Flag overflowed, yes, but then we found out that the dam up there of Saginaw Manistee Lumber Company had broken, and all the water had to go down -one way or another, it had to go down, so it got the easiest. So it went down and went where we lived, and some of it stayed there in La Plaza Vieja. But we got a lot of water. We had a ball! all of us. We made little boats and we were in that water all the time. This happened in the summertime, so the water wasn't cold. So that's what I mostly remember. I remember going to church with my mom. My dad didn't go to church, but my mom did go to church, and we'd go to church -all of us would go to church. And we had Sunday school, and it was a lot of fun learning, reading. They always had a teacher there to teach us that. And then we had to go into the big church.

Muñoz: What was that church named?

Estrella: The Methodist church, right there on San Francisco Street. Then the pastor, he would give his sermon, about an hour, maybe two hours, I don't know. I thought it was about four or five hours. But then the elders, which were part of my uncles and part of the neighborhood people, everybody got up and said something. So by the time we got out of church, it's one o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon, and some of us hadn't even had breakfast, so we were famished by the time we went home. And all my people -well, we were the nucleus of that church, because of Grandma, and I had Uncle Joe, and my Uncle Joe Rodriguez, and Arturo Vandiga, Julius Atien -and families -and we had José Mendoza, and we had Jimmy Lemoz -another uncle -and naturally my Uncle Juan Rodriguez, and Lin Rodriguez. It was a big family, so everybody had big families. The Vandigas themselves, they had seventeen kids. They only had -well, actually about nine of 'em lived. The Rodriguez had sixteen, and actually about ten of 'em lived. So you know it was a big, big family. I come from a family of ten -one of our kids died, she died in New Mexico. Oh, I'll tell you about New Mexico. My mother and her folks came to Flagstaff during piñon season. That's around right now, in October. And they came over, and I don't know, one way or another, they met up there in the woods, and my dad -or my grandmother and my uncles and my dad -invited them to stay there at the house, at one of our houses. And they picked a lot of piñon -they picked a lot of piñon. So I guess my mother fell in love with my dad then. She was only sixteen years old. My dad was something like nineteen already, so [he was no sapling?!]. So they got married, and to this day I'm so happy that they got together, because I've got a lot of people in New Mexico, too. I've got a lot of cousins and stuff. As everybody knew, then there was big families -all over. If you can feed one kid with one hamburger, you can feed a whole bunch with a pot of arroz, frijoles, whatever. It was beautiful then, because of that. Now, you go get a pizza, sixteen dollars! Makes me angry. I mean, not that I mind, because now....

Muñoz: You can use that for other ways of feeding your family. That's what you're saying.

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: Well, you covered a lot of my questions, but I'm going to go back to your parents, when they came to the state of Arizona, you would say they landed in Cosnino. Was that because of the employment?

Estrella: Yes. They were called braceros then, because some of them were contracted to kind of work either railroads, sawmills -but they were contracted from Mexico to come here. My people came -I don't say that they were contract, but they knew that there were jobs here, so they came. My wife's folks came a little later, maybe 1907 or something. They were fleeing the Revolucion. Okay, turning back to the braceros -so that's what they used to call.... Well, my big uncles, they called them braceros, because they came from over there. And then later on in maybe the forties, they started calling them Chicanos. Well, it's changed now. Now, a Chicano is somebody born here, and now they call them mojados. So it's changed, three times it's changed. Before they were braceros. The word itself, I don't know what it is, but something to do with work. [I've been told it comes from "arms," because they work with their arms. (Tr.)]

Muñoz: And so your parents both met here in Flagstaff and here's where they married?

Estrella: Right.

Muñoz: Was that a trade that your father had when he came to work for the railroad, or timber?

Estrella: Well, my dad didn't come, my dad was too young -but my uncles and my grandmother did.

Muñoz: Oh, okay. Was that a trade that they had from over there, that they did, whether they worked at the railroad?

Estrella: They all worked in sawmills. They came following the trees. That's why we're here.

Muñoz: Oh, so you've always been timber people.

Estrella: My Uncle Arturo Adelia worked about sixty years for timber. My Uncle [Leo?], he's the youngest one, he worked about forty-some years. Mike Adelia, my cousin, which is Arturo's, he worked, I don't know, about fifty years. Everybody worked many years. Then the oldest uncle I got, he gave it up. He started cuttin' wood, his own, and he used to cut wood and take it to the steam plant. They had a steam plant that carried steam all over town, to heat up the town -libraries and the whole thing. And I remember them just working and working and cutting wood, my dad, everybody. Everybody worked. But the only time they would stop is around this time again. I love this time, October, because they would stop and kill about six, seven hogs, and there was a feast. Mosia -you know what mosia is?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: I still make it.

Muñoz: Oh, do you?!

Estrella: In fact, I got some in my refrigerator.

Muñoz: Is that right?!

Estrella: We just killed a hog here two weeks ago.

Muñoz: Okay, that tradition, from your mother, from New Mexico, did you learn that tradition?

Estrella: No, from my grandmother. Every tradition, mostly, we got it from my grandmother. Of course, my grandmother had a restaurant, too. When she came to Flagstaff from Cosnino, she set up a little restaurant right in between Chuy's Pool Hall and Chin Chun Chan, which was a bar. It had a little cubby hole there, and I remember well, she did the same thing: all the workers stopped there for their lunch in the morning. Every morning they'd stop, going to the sawmill, wherever they worked.

Muñoz: What was that name? What was that restaurant called?

Estrella: I don't remember. It was just a little hole in the wall. I remember her working so hard. But it was in between Chin Chun Chan and el pool de Chuy's spino. It was right in between there.

Muñoz: Okay. My question who were they employed by? You already said in Cosnino they were working for....

Estrella: It was a little sawmill there, yeah.

Muñoz: Okay. And they'd been in the timber business ________.

Estrella: They'd been in the timber business, well, all their lives.

Muñoz: Okay. So your first home, you said, was [on] San Francisco.

Estrella: Four sixteen South San Francisco Street. That's where I was born. It belongs to the Valdivias.

Muñoz: Okay, I was gonna [ask].

Estrella: The younger Valdivias, it belongs to them now. It's right across, a little to the side of, across the street from El Charro.

Muñoz: Yeah, I know which one it is. And it's Roy Valdivia that I think has that.

Estrella: Okay, Roy and them, yes.

Muñoz: All right. That house, was it bought or rented? -the one you lived in when you were growing up.

Estrella: Where I was born? It was my grandmother's, she bought it.

Muñoz: She bought it from whom?

Estrella: That happened a long time ago. I remember being a little kid there.

Muñoz: Okay, so you don't remember exactly. Okay.

Estrella: No.

Muñoz: So in that neighborhood, you've already described that neighborhood was a real nice neighborhood.

Estrella: Beautiful neighborhood. People were so nice there. I mean, everybody helped each other. I'll tell you something about that homestead. Yes, 1935 my grandmother sold that house to Mike Valdivia.

Muñoz: Macario?

Estrella: Macario Valdivia. Macario Valdivia paid her with a car, an old Chrysler -one of those big, rambling cars. We used to go piñon hunting with her in that car. We had to pay Grandma one cup of piñons. We'd go out here to Winona, and there was a lot of piñons, and that's the way we paid her for gas and stuff like that -all of us. It was a touring car. And some of us went on the fenders. Like, you know, those fenders, the old cars, they have the fenders. So that's the way we went. I tell you, we had so much fun! We didn't have no TV. The only person that had a radio in my neighborhood was Don Isobelle Navarro, and Ramon Navarro. Okay, they had a radio, and dinnertime, Joe Louis would fight, which was in the early thirties. He put it on the window, and everybody would sit around and just listen to the fight, or baseball games, because they would come out of El Paso, Del Rio, Texas. They would come from New York, or wherever it came from, and they would be translated there in Del Rio, Texas. Then they would go everywhere in English, which was great. [Does he mean they would be translated into Spanish, and then go everywhere? (Tr.)]

Muñoz: The types of food. Well, because your grandma was in the restaurant business, what types of foods do you remember growing up with?

Estrella: Frijoles, tortillas, tamales, enchiladas, candios, mocia, chicarones -nothing but basic Mexican food. We had homemade tortillas. My aunts would make ________. After she finished with the restaurant, there was no restaurant anymore, she kept her big stove, and they could make about ten tortillas [at once]. So some of the tias, and my mother, were rolling them out, and there were two tias over there, turning 'em over. (stammers) ... just go and get it, and then my grandmother, well, she was very.... We had a cow named Wimpy, and she'd make butter, and she'd make everything. So you know, a tortilla and butter is so good. It's better when you're a kid. You haven't got any, have you? (Muñoz laughs) And my uncle and my dad used to ________.

Muñoz: _________, uh-huh.

Estrella: You know. And we'd go in there, and he'd squirt us with that milk, and it was the happiest time of our lives. That was really happy.

Muñoz: You really enjoyed it.

Estrella: We had a cow, when a lot of people didn't have them. At that time, we had to go walking over there where Lumberjack Stadium is. That used to be flat over there, a lot of grass, near the cemetery. So we didn't have to take the cow, but we'd have to stay with her, because she was a tourist, she wanted to go everywhere.

Muñoz: She wandered everywhere, huh?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: So then you grew your own vegetables?

Estrella: Yes, that's another thing. We had our own nodia, we had our own water. It wasn't against the law to use well water. We used well water for everything.

Muñoz: Okay, and that would be on San Francisco, that was your well water?

Estrella: Right, right there. From that block building that's there. We had chile, we had maize, we had all kinds of vegetables. They tell that there was a big Depression, but I don't remember that big Depression, because about that time my dad was working up here with Mr. Holt. He was a rancher up here the other side of the Peaks. Once in a while he'd bring a haunch of beef or deer or something. So we were always well fed. What we suffered with was candy -we didn't have no money. My aunt used to make some -in summertime -watermelon candy. It was the best candy I ever tasted in my life, watermelon candy.

Muñoz: I bet! Okay, you mentioned little neighborhood stores, which was Christina's and Salvador Mir. Right?

Estrella: Uh-huh.

Muñoz: You don't remember any others around in the neighborhood?

Estrella: Well, those three were on San Francisco Street. Then there was another little bitty store which belonged to Don Salvador Cortez.

Muñoz: Oh, okay. And that would be located where?

Estrella: Right in front of where El Paso Norte is. Right where the mission is right now.

Muñoz: Okay, Rescue Mission. All right. School: What school did you attend?

Estrella: What's the name of the school down here, the first school?

Muñoz: South Beaver? Brannen School?

Estrella: Brannen. I went to baby class, first grade. Then if I remember correctly, 1933 or '34, we moved to South Beaver School. And I was one of the originals going to South Beaver School. That's where I went to. And then straight from there we went to Flag High or Junior High, and then to Flag High.

Muñoz: So what year would you say when you started school? How old were you, do you remember?

Estrella: Well I was seven years old when I started school. They wouldn't let you start before that. I don't know why.

Muñoz: Okay, what was school like then, do you remember?

Estrella: It was really good, because I remember Mrs. Vandevier, and she taught here for a hundred years, I guess. (stammers)

Muñoz: Laura Kinsey? No?

Estrella: No, Laura Kinsey was after. (pause) I'll tell you, when we were at South Beaver is when I remember.... Mrs. Acker! Mrs. Acker was the other one. Mrs. Acker and Mrs. Vandevier were here. And Mr. Robles started there, Robert Robles. And then we moved to South Beaver. Then we had Mrs. Baker, Mrs. Schnebly, Robert Robles, Tony Lubasich, Weitzel, and Mr. Castro came there after we left and went to the junior high school.

Muñoz: Okay. And your friends at school, were they pretty much your neighborhood friends? Or did you make friends from other areas?

Estrella: There was nobody from any other area. Most of the South Beaver.... No, there was some kids from La Plaza Vieja. There was some kids there. There was a lot of kids there. But you usually only hung together. You know how it is in our Latino way -we stay more or less together. So we stayed with.... I remember Bennie Inigas' sister, Rebecca -she lived right across from River de Flag, and at lunch hour, I raced her home, and she could run faster than I could. All of us ran _____________. (tape turned off and on)

Muñoz: Okay, Mr. Estrella, you were talking about the school and all your teachers there. I'm sorry there was an interruption.

Estrella: Well, the teachers at South Beaver, shall I tell you again?

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: Well, there was Robert Robles, Tony Lubasich. There was McCauley. She married a movie star, which is Bob Baker, the cowboy. And Mrs. Nyland. Mrs. Patchenka -she was the art teacher. And there was another one, Mrs. Polock, of the Polocks here, the big ranchers. And Weitzel. And Castro came later, and all those people came later. I didn't know.... My brothers might have known 'em, or my little sisters might have known 'em. Then I went to the junior high school, and the teachers over there were Dickinson, Mr. Redman, Mr. Kilip. And Baker moved up there, too -Mrs. Baker.

Muñoz: Did you have a role model when you were growing up?

Estrella: I would think it would be my Uncle John.

Muñoz: Okay, why would that be?

Estrella: Because he was the strongest man I ever knew. He could pick up a hundred-pound sack of beans with an extended arm like that. He could bend horseshoes. He didn't drink. He drank a little bit, because my grandmother used to make beer. In fact, we stole a little bit of beer from my grandma. My cousin, Arturo Adelia, Jr. -we used to go down there and Elias Robano, my other cousin, we used to go down there. She had like a cellar, and we used to steal some of the beer -but my grandmother knew about it. My grandmother would always know what we were doing -always. In fact, we picked up some cigarette butts, when we were kids, right there near Chin Chun Chan and them. And we went under the bridge, on San Francisco Street, or where the water came, and were smoking. My grandmother had a stick with her and found us. She went over to the store, Luis, Don Lucito, and bought us, I remember, some Camels and made us smoke all the Camels. I did not smoke until after I come out of the service. And I was twenty-one years old.

Muñoz: She taught you a lesson, huh?! Okay, was there anyone that you admired when you were growing up?

Estrella: I don't think so. Just like I told you, my Uncle John.

Muñoz: He was very important to you?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: Okay, did you have an idea, or did you know what you wanted to do or be when you grew up?

[END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

Estrella: Later on, I was sixteen years old. Curly and I, we went over there and bought a couple of horses. My horse's name was Blondie -it was a blonde horse. And he had red. And we'd ride 'em all over the place. I guess I wanted to be a cowboy, bad -really bad I wanted to be a cowboy.

Muñoz: Why would that be? Because you watched a lot of cowboy movies?

Estrella: Yes, maybe so. We used to go to Flagstaff Theater and pay a nickel and go see Buck Jones and Ken Mayner and Lash LaRue and all those old-time cowboys -Tom Mix. Not John Wayne, John Wayne wasn't even then.

Muñoz: Okay. Language. Was Spanish your first language?

Estrella: Exactly right.

Muñoz: Was that hard? When you were going to school, would that be kind of a hard thing to learn English? Did you have trouble communicating?

Estrella: Yes, it was very hard. We knew English, too, because like my Uncle John was a college graduate, and he would talk to us in Spanish. And my dad was very knowledgeable. The first word that I remember him saying, "Son, do you know what 'abroad' is?" "No, Dad." "Well, it means 'overseas.'" And then like my Uncle John, we would talk to him in Spanish. He would say, __________. I said, "What's that word? A new word! I love it!" And I did. And I said, "What is it?" "It means _________." Indubitably. I'm agreeing to what you say, even if it's English. My dad could get a newspaper. If it was in English, he would read it in Spanish to my grandma. And if it was in Spanish, my mother didn't know how to read. He would translate it into English for her. He could read exactly word by word. He only went to the sixth grade.

Muñoz: Here in the United States? Or....

Estrella: Yeah, right here in Flagstaff. That's all. He went to the sixth grade, and he could do that. It was a natural talent for him. So no, we knew English. What made me angry about it was that we couldn't talk on the school grounds. And anybody can cuff you, if you were in a store or depot, or something like that, because you were talking Spanish. I was born with it, and over in my neighborhood, everybody talked Spanish, and it wasn't a sin. But if you go across the tracks, it was a sin to talk [Spanish]. And some of the people, like I remember Mr. Harper, he was great. There was another man, worked for Babbitts, he was a meat cutter. I don't exactly remember his name, but he also was very, very.... He wanted to learn Spanish words, you know, because there was a lot of Spanish-speaking people here, and he wanted to learn the cuts of meat in Spanish, just like that. And then he ran the slaughterhouse, which I worked in the slaughterhouse when I was a kid.

Muñoz: What slaughterhouse would that be?

Estrella: That's Babbitts Slaughterhouse. It used to be right there where the Orchid Paper Mill is right now. And the Horhorkays are the ones that ran it -Don Samuel Horhorkay, and Fred Horhorkay, John Horhorkay -all of 'em. That's what they were, butchers. And I worked for them.

Muñoz: So did you feel any discrimination in school or in the community?

Estrella: By "community," you mean Flagstaff?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Yes. There was always that. In school there was more so. Because really, it was against the law to talk Spanish -that's what they told us -it was against the law or something. You couldn't talk Spanish, you had to talk English. In fact, this, I don't like to say it, but I'm going to say it: This man, his name is David Cervantes. He knew I liked cowboy shirts, so he gave me a cowboy shirt, and it was gabardine -beautiful shirt. And this Mr. Dickinson, I was walking down the aisle, he grabbed me and tore it, tore it off of me. And I don't know why, I didn't do nothin', I was just goin' from class to class. And I hit him.

Muñoz: The teacher?

Estrella: I beat the heck out of him. I really did, because that was the only shirt.... Well, I had another shirt, but that was beautiful. It was gabardine, and he tore it from me. And they expelled me from school for about a week, I guess, and I had to stay away from Mr. Dickinson. Mr. Redman was our principal, and he said, "Stay away from Mr. Dickinson." Mr. Dickinson was one of those people -rednecks -I don't know what you call 'em. They were prejudiced then, but now they call them little rednecks or whatever. I'm not proud of that.

Muñoz: No, but it happened.

Estrella: It happened to me, my own. It hurt me so much.

Muñoz: Sure, you were hurt.

Estrella: It hurt me so much, me being a kid. And I was only, what, thirteen years old. But one thing I could do was fight.

Muñoz: Why did he do that, do you know?

Estrella: I don't know -to this day, I don't know. ________ like that. He was coming that way, and he grabbed me and tore my shirt. And to this day, I don't know why he did it. But he never liked Mexicans anyway.

Muñoz: So you had an experience in school.

Estrella: Oh, I had experiences in school.

Muñoz: How about in the community? Did you experience that, too?

Estrella: Yes, like....

Muñoz: The barbershop?

Estrella: About the barbershop, yeah. It said, "White trade only." You couldn't even go in there and do nothin'. You know, some other people that I know that were great? The Knoles. The Knoles, they had Knoles Bakery. We used to go up there, and we used to go over there to Penney's and get boxes, and we'd sell the boxes to the bakeries. And we'd get bread. We'd get all kinds of bread. And the Knoles were great for that. Day-old bread. So what?! Bread!

Muñoz: That's right, that's right. Okay, how about discrimination among the Spanish people?

Estrella: Some of 'em. Some of 'em were a little - they were more well-to-do than the other ones, and they more or less [which they have for centuries?] looked down at the one that doesn't have as much, or whatever. But really, it all evens out. In the Spanish community, it all evens out. It doesn't even out, like in school -you still have problems, but they keep it down.

Muñoz: That also included the Basque people. I don't know if you knew the difference between Bascos and....

Estrella: Bascos __________ Españoles.

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: I know. I know all my Hispanic people, more or less.

Muñoz: (chuckles) And then of course they had a difference in language, a dialect of Spanish.

Estrella: Oh, yeah, the dialect -French/Spanish dialect. And those are the strongest people I ever met, as a whole -the Bascos. The strongest people. I don't know what it is. One of them told me, "Vino!" But I don't know, about a little vino.

Muñoz: Yeah, they use that a lot. (laughs) Was there many that lived around the neighborhood that you lived in -Españoles or Bascos?

Estrella: Well, sure.

Muñoz: Okay, name some.

Estrella: Well, for one, the Miers. David was my age; Salvador and Mary; Don Salvador, the old man and his wife. I don't remember her name. But then there's Florindo Gomez. Florindo Gomez showed me how to pit barbecue down in the ground. And I showed him how to pit barbecue beans down in the ground, so we exchanged. But the reason that he showed me was -I'm not gonna say no names on there, 'cause these guys are buddies of mine -but they'd go up there and we'd make barbecue for Joe Pylin, Joe's place. They would donate that meat to him, and we would go up there ________ and cook it underground. Okay. So the reason he taught me so well to cook like that, was that the first thing he told me, "I don't want you drinkin'," because Joe Pylin would take a whole case of whiskey, keg of beer. Some of the other guys would be drinkin' after a while. You work around that fire, it's a pit as big from here to you, or longer. And so I didn't drink. He say's, "Now you can drink." After we buried the meat, we did that. Sometimes Frank Ousa, they were cookin' over on the other side, and we were cookin' over here. And we got along fine, great. You know, the Spanish community here, there were a lot of 'em that they're goin', a lot of borregedos that came or used to be here seasonal, just in summertime, when the borregedos were here. But there was a lot of 'em, and all seemed very.... There was no friction between Español and Mexicano, Mexicano __________.

Muñoz: Okay. Good deal. And you've given me your church that you attended. How about cemeteries? Do you remember any?

Estrella: Oh, my God, we remember a lot of things about cemeteries, because [as] kids, we would go up there. See, the cemetery is at the end of San Francisco Street. There was nothing in between. Maybe, you know, I don't know, but there was no ball field, there was no high-rise buildings like they've got now. All right, it was straight across. The cemetery goes down like this. Okay, we go in there 'til it got darker and darker, and we'd be saying very spooky stories, a bunch of guys. Spooky stories and see who would give up first. So one day, I don't know where I found a tire, but we were all rolling tires. I found a tire, both sides were white on the sides. That's when they first started white-wall tires. Well, I was the leader of the bunch anyway, and the other guys had black tires. So here we go, and were saying the [scary] stories. The more we said, the scareder we were lookin'. We were right in between all the santos, whatever, right there. But one of 'em get up, and go over there. He wouldn't leave his tire. Your tire was your own tire. You found that tire, and that's the one you used. So I wouldn't leave my tire. My tire was white sidewall. So I was the last one to leave, but about two seconds after the other guy, but I was the last one, who stayed there, was macho man. Okay, so here we were doing a tire like this, and I thought I heard something behind me. I left the tire, to heck with the tire! So we started runnin', and I passed half of them, and we _____ back, and there was something following us, something white following us. It was my tire! (laughter) I mean, we were really running, as fast as we could. But that, like I tell you, was an incline from the cemetery down to where San Francisco starts now. Right on the fence of NAU. So yes, we used to have a good time. In fact, we got a lot of our animals there, ardias, the chipmunks and stuff, that's where we got 'em, because there was hoses out there. We had one hose, we'd hide all the time, and we'd put it down the hole and we'd grab the thing, sell them to the college. Like I tell you, we just had a ball.

Muñoz: Was that a job that you guys picked up on your own, or you knew you could make money that way? Was that a way to help you or your family? What was that all about?

Estrella: Well, it was just.... In fact, my brother and I modeled in the art classes in loincloth, and they used to pay something like a dollar an hour, which was great, for the art classes. Toby, he's right there in that picture. But we modeled for the art class.

Muñoz: What year was that?

Estrella: Oh, that must have been -I was about ten years old, eleven years old.

Muñoz: You did have a good time when you were growing up!

Estrella: Oh, like I tell everybody, I tell this kid -I was a champion marble player in the whole neighborhood. I could take all the marbles. It was one man that could take my marbles all the time, and he always took 'em. His name was Tony Rodriguez. His mother was Mrs. Rodriguez, the truant officer. Have you ever heard of her, Doña Maris?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: She came all the way from Ireland. And she was[n't?] a mean woman. She was strict. Well, that was her son. So we played Bull Ring. You know what a Bull Ring is? Everybody put -there was a big circle -ten marbles or whatever in there. And Tony said, "Let's play Bull Ring." He was a custodian there! "Let's play Bull Ring." I said, "Okay." I knew I was good. And we'd lag and see who'd shoot first and stuff. And pretty soon, all the marbles in there, the bell would ring, we'd run inside. We had to run inside. There was Mr. Weitzel, who'd see who's late. Well, you know who got all the marbles! Tony got all the marbles, 'cause he always played marbles with us. He was a custodian.

Muñoz: So he knew what time to go play marbles! (laughs)

Estrella: Oh yeah, he knew.

Muñoz: So he'd beat you at marbles. You were in the area of San Francisco Street, and that was your neighborhood. How about Los Chantes? What do you remember about Los Chantes?

Estrella: We couldn't go very well over there because we'd get in big fights, because los Mesas were over there, los Lopez.

Muñoz: The Ceballoses?

Estrella: The Ceballoses, and we'd have to get in a fight. We didn't have to go up there to get in a fight, we'd just wait to go to the dance at the Armory, and we'd fight there. ___________ almost.

Muñoz: (laughs) For no reason at all?

Estrella: Well, yeah. I dance with a girl, and somebody took offense. Or they'd dance with a girl and I took offense, or whatever. It was a big, happy family, what I'm saying -big happy family. We didn't say, "Well, I'm gonna get that guy." There was nothing. We'd drink out of the same bottle. After we were older, we'd drink out of the same bottle. You know, we got in fights and stuff like that. There was never any bad, bad blood or feelings there.

Muñoz: I asked about El Santo. Do you remember that Santo?

Estrella: ¿El Santo de la Plaza Vieja? Sure.

Muñoz: No, the Chantes.

Estrella: Oh, El Santo de Los Chantes? That, too. I remember Lo Hito, we used to go get water over there.

Muñoz: Oh, really?

Estrella: Yeah, up there. You know where Lo Hito is?

Muñoz: By Old Town?

Estrella: Yeah, in the Old Town. Yeah, I remember La Llorona ____________. We used to go up there. My grandmother and I, we'd walk clear over there. At first there was just the highway. Afterwards, Saginaw and Manistee, they put a banquetta, wood, and you'd walk, and you'd make a lot of noise, walkin' down through there. Y los Espidos, they lived over there, too. So we'd go over there and sometimes I'd stay all night with my grandma. Well, I stayed until she got home. I don't know why I was elected to go. I knew all about births.

Muñoz: Oh, you did? Because you were with her all the time.

Estrella: Yeah. I was born under her, too.

Muñoz: And your grandma was named what?

Estrella: Blasa Rodriguez.

Muñoz: So she did cover the vicinity of....

Estrella: She covered the whole thing. Yeah, because remember I told you they said something about a curandera. I don't remember, me growing up, otra curandera _____ mama, mi abuela. I remember Dr. Sechrist comin' over to our house, and talkin' to my grandma. And Dr. Raymond coming over to the house and talking to my grandmother, because she had a lot of herbs. She'd go out in the woods, she'd take one of us, and we'd have to carry her herbs and stuff like that. She'd know where to get 'em.

Muñoz: She'd know what to use, huh? Okay. The Santo was going towards that, because do you know why they put it in the Chantes? Do you know the reason?

Estrella: In Los Chantes?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Oh, in Los Chantes. Well, por La Llorona, _________________. They put like -we're very superstitious. It doesn't matter if we say, "No, we're not superstitious" -we are superstitious. So that was because of La Urona. They would hear.... Well, right there, you're close to the woods, so there's always coyotes -there was wolves, then. You know? And have you ever heard a mountain lion cry?

Muñoz: No.

Estrella: It's like a woman screaming.

Muñoz: Is that right?

Estrella: I've heard 'em. I've heard 'em many times out in the woods. So, yes, we are superstitious. They're our superstitions, but we'll keep 'em.

Muñoz: It was for that reason they put it there, okay. Now, I'm covering weddings, traditionally. Do you remember how those were celebrated or recognized?

Estrella: Well, I was there when my Tio José Mendoza y Tia Julia got married. And it's the same, it doesn't change. To me, it doesn't change, _______. They had the whole thing. Then they had a fiesta going on all night -like wakes.

Muñoz: That's good, because I was going to ask you about that. Wakes were at home?

Estrella: Wakes were done in the house, and a lot of people got a lot drunk! You stayed up all night long. We were kids, looking at them. Weddings were just like they are right now. And they were held, like the Methodist Church had a small sala in the back. Okay, but we have access to the Federated Church, because the minister from over there, the minister from over here were good buddies. So sometimes they'd take us all over there to services. We'd mingle over there with the crowd over there and stuff. Mr. Harper belonged to that one, then. Our minister's name was Mr. Berman. I'll never forget him, because he was such a nice man.

Muñoz: You mentioned Mr. Harper. You also told me that church on San Francisco, that Methodist Evangelist Church, was moved from....

Estrella: From up there, the other side of the courthouse. See, they moved it on rollers. They moved it all the way down. There wasn't that many cars, you know -maybe a couple of horses, but no [cars]. Talkin' about horses, have you ever heard of Mountain Joe?

Muñoz: No.

Estrella: Mountain Joe -there was an old family here. I don't remember his last name -Monterez or something like that. But they had horses and cows. Okay, Mountain Joe used to tell us a story. He lived right across. I don't know why Curly didn't tell you. They lived right next to Curly. One day he said, we were talking with Mountain Joe, and he said, "Well, I'm tired, I'm really tired." "What happened to you, Mountain?" He says, "My dad sent me out for the cows last night." They did have cattle. "And I went out on my horse and it was dark. I just brought 'em all in and put 'em in the corral. The next day my day whooped me." I said, "Well, why did he whip you?" And I was believing all of this. I said, "Why did he whip you?" He said, "Well, there's a bunch of bears in the corral. I didn't see." He used to ride a horse, mouse-colored horse, beautiful horse. Right in front of -now they call it the Rancho Grande -but he'd tie that horse right there in front, and commence to drink all day long. Jim Wright, the policeman there, or the sheriff, they would tell him he'd better go. "You'd better go." He'd keep the horse right there. He'd get drunk, and the horse would be out there just waiting for him. I remember that, because I loved horses so much. But I don't know why Curly didn't tell you. He knows the last name of these people.

Muñoz: Okay, let me ask him about Mountain Joe. We talked about funerals and rosaries at home. Baptismals, the same thing, at home.

Estrella: How's that?

Muñoz: Your baptismals, were they celebrated at home, or at the church?

Estrella: Yes. The baptismals were different. The baptismals, they'd take you over to Oak Creek, and dunk you down in there.

Muñoz: What part of Oak Creek? Where in Oak Creek? Chavez Crossing?

Estrella: No, way before. Almost up here where really the water is cold. Manzanita. They'd dunk you down in there. They'd dunk you in there and keep you down in there and baptize you like that. Then we'd have a big picnic up there. So that was our baptismals.

Muñoz: Entertainment, movies. Did you see many movies? Well, you mentioned all the western movies.

Estrella: Well, there was those cowboy movies and stuff. But later on we saw, like, Grapes of Wrath. My mother just loved that Grapes of Wrath. And that was during the time.... We had a good time there, too. You know what it was, The Grapes of Wrath?

Muñoz: Depression.

Estrella: Okay, it was the exodus from Oklahoma. Okay. But we'd see, yeah, they were migrants.

Muñoz: Right, right.

Estrella: There was a big tank of water there at Santa Fe, right on San Francisco Street and the tracks.

Muñoz: Yeah, I remember.

Estrella: Okay, and there was a wall there. And we'd set there and see all the cars pass -all the old cars on [Highway] 66. There was a lot of excitement. "What's happening? What's happening?" We didn't dare go too much over the tracks, because it was more or less forbidden, unless you go up there to buy something. So everybody bought most of their food over at Food Town. Remember where Food Town was?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Okay, that's where we bought our food, right on Beaver.

Muñoz: It was forbidden to go over the tracks?

Estrella: Well, it wasn't forbidden, but yet, _________ (both talking at once).

Muñoz: Discrimination?

Estrella: ___________ you're a little older, the kids over there. I mean, they didn't like you coming into their -it's a territorial rights, whatever you call it. There were no gringos coming down on the south side either! (Muñoz laughs) I mean, you didn't see anybody. We'd have our fiestas right on San Francisco Street. We'd have our Jamaicas. It started right there on Clay, which is Butler now, up to El Rancho Grande Road right there, and we'd have our fiestas [right in the road?], Jamaicas, oh, beautiful. They had their queens, the Fifth of June [May], or the Sixth [Sixteenth] of September. We had beautiful, beautiful, and they'd stop everything, and they had booths and stuff like. I don't know if they can do it now, but it was so beautiful there.

Muñoz: The fiestas ______. That would be the Sixteenth of September and El Cinco de Mayo, huh?

Estrella: Yeah, Cinco de Mayo. They had their queen, like they have, yet. But that's where we celebrated it. And then at night, they had the dance there, too.

Muñoz: The movie houses, where were they located, do you remember?

Estrella: All right, yes. Flagstaff Theater was located on San Francisco Street, right where -you know that new café, right there where the alley is, the other side?

Muñoz: Okay. It used to be Carl's Shoe Store?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: And then....

Estrella: Quality, and stuff. Okay. Okay, that same alley, going south, used to be another theater. The name of it was.... In fact, that sign is over there.... That sign of that theater is over there where they used to have roller skating, ______ roller skating rink. I don't remember, but that also, but they showed more.... But it still cost a nickel, and a nickel for popcorn or whatever. And then you had Orpheum, where you couldn't sit on the bottom -upstairs. I liked it.

Muñoz: Because you were Mexican, is that why?

Estrella: We had to. And we didn't care, especially when we were with a girl. I mean, we didn't care. But, funny that we couldn't go down in the plush side of Orpheum.

Muñoz: So you did see, and you did feel a lot of discrimination when you were growing up.

Estrella: Oh, I've seen a lot of that.

Muñoz: Okay, dance halls. I know you know about dance halls.

Estrella: Oh, yeah.

Muñoz: Other than the Armory, what else was there?

Estrella: Well, the Armory....

[END TAPE 1, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]

Estrella: ... that was the best. But then we had another place, Veterans of Foreign Wars, which was in Los Chantes right near -right now, I guess where.... What do you call that little.... It's a corner store right there, gas station.

Muñoz: Pick Quick?

Estrella: Pick Quick. That's around where it was. But that all was.... Then there was the Chantes back there anyway. But there was a sala there. In fact, Alice and I used to go to all the dances there.

Muñoz: It was called Catholic War Veterans?

Estrella: The Catholic War Veterans.

Muñoz: Yes. As a matter of fact, I just saw a picture of that today.

Estrella: I've got a picture of it, but I don't remember where it is -of the girls, not of the men -the girls, _______. Alice was historian, or something like that.

Muñoz: That was for Mexicanos then, huh?

Estrella: Yeah. It was neat. It wasn't big, it was just like Veterans -this one.

Muñoz: The VFW [Veterans for Foreign Wars], uh-huh.

Estrella: VFW. You know, small. That's the way that was. Okay, they had that one -well, they had the Armory -and we needed more than the Armory, because that was huge. That was beautiful.

Muñoz: That's where the [Friendship Barn?] is now.

Estrella: That's where all the fights were -Saturday night fights.

Muñoz: That's what you looked forward to, the fights! (laughter) Okay. The music that was played, was that Mexican music, would you say?

Estrella: Yes. And Cuban music -mambos, ____________. You know, this was when we were ready to go to dance and stuff. _____________. Nothing but big band sounds in Spanish, and mambo, like.... What was his name? Well, a whole lot of.... There was also Charlie Escoto's's sala, that was before, too. And we had the Syncopaters.

Muñoz: Syncopaters, was that a local group?

Estrella: Yes.

Muñoz: (laughs) Okay. Who did that consist of, who were the people?

Estrella: I wish I'd have known that you were going to ask me that, because I've got a thing about the Syncopaters. Her uncle used to play -he went to college here, so he used to play with the Syncopaters. Then there was other bands, like Old Navarro, and Tona Mesa, and ... oh, my God, there were a lot of musicians here -beautiful musicians that could play most anything. My father-in-law used to come ___________ from Winslow. Her uncle, which makes him my uncle too, he used to play here.

Muñoz: What was his name?

Estrella: His name was Paul Rodriguez -that's her uncle. There's another Rodriguez. And her dad, José Flores. And then Gene Figueroa.

Muñoz: Yes, I remember him, Gene.

Estrella: Right, Gene Figueroa. He was one. There's four or five guys that come out of Williams that were really good.

Muñoz: Okay, was that Manuel Ibarra?

Estrella: Manuel Ibarra, yeah.

Muñoz: How about Ramon Lomeli, or Frank Lomeli?

Estrella: Old Frank Lomeli, and Lalo Lomeli, his son. I'm glad you're bringing this up for me!

Muñoz: Frank Lomeli.

Estrella: And Lalo, his son.

Muñoz: How about Sal Martinez?

Estrella: You're talking about Trini Martinez's husband? No.

Muñoz: No? That would be another [Sal Martinez?].

Estrella: It might have been somebody else.

Muñoz: Women -did they participate in music?

Estrella: Not really. Singers.

Muñoz: Okay, who would that be?

Estrella: I really couldn't tell you.

Muñoz: How about Mary Lopez? _______________.

Estrella: There must have been a lot of women who'd sing and stuff. But before, they kept in the background more or less. The men are the ones _____, because they had to travel so much.

Muñoz: Okay, the instruments that they used, what was that? Guitars?

Estrella: They used trumpets, they used everything a big band sound. Big band sound's been here since the thirties, and we've used it, but with a latin rhythm to it. We had a lot of 'em.

Muñoz: Any time there was a community celebration, they had music?

Estrella: ______ Mexican without the music?! __________________. I don't think.

Muñoz: (laughs) That's great! Okay. Let's go back to Depression: what you remember of it was that you never lacked food.

Estrella: We never lacked food, because my grandmother and my uncles, they all had their gardens. They all had their gardens. No, we worked, like I tell you, we worked in the slaughterhouse. Well, before that, my uncles, some of them, went to cut wood or [season?] over there. And they'd bring the corazones, las tripas, la leche, la espanzas -which is our breakfast of champions stuff, you know.

Muñoz: ________ minudo!

Estrella: Okay, yes. And so I want to tell you something. (pause) I had this horse, I told you, his name was Blondie.

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Later -this must have been about the forties -during the war, when there was no meat -I mean nobody had meat, you had stamps. Okay, I'd get my horse, and I'd go up here, second ranch, behind second ranch, I'd kill me a calf. I'd have a little .22, I'd kill me a calf, and I'd get home. We lived in -have you heard of the Adobes?

Muñoz: Yeah, I've heard of them.

Estrella: Okay, then we lived in the Adobes then, and those Adobes belonged to Asanta Gomez, Tony Asanta Gomez.

Muñoz: La Española.

Estrella: Uh-huh. So summertime, I'd make it home by nine o'clock when it was dark. I had my sacks full of meat. And we'd just eat. That has nothing to do with the Depression. It means.... Well, yeah, it was depression, because we didn't have anything to eat. You couldn't get any meat. But I'd bring.... My family never suffered with food. My brothers would shine shoes, sell papers. We'd sell old boxes for bread at Knoles Bakery and Flagstaff Bakery, which is right on the main drag, which is a saddlery right now. We'd do that. We always had something, we always had something. Like, my dad was working up there, too. That was during the Depression.

Muñoz: Where did he work at?

Estrella: He worked with Mr. Bob Holt.

Muñoz: Oh, that's right, you mentioned that.

Estrella: He was a rancher up there. My dad was a cowboy. Well, he was everything.

Muñoz: Did he ever do sheep herding? He did that too?

Estrella: Uh-huh. So what I saw of Depression, what I saw really bad was those cars passing through. That really impressed me. Oh, another thing that impressed me: Have you ever heard of the tar pits here in Flagstaff? Okay, now you know where I'm at. Well, the hoboes used to have a jungle there. They stayed there off the [cream?]. And we'd go over there and they would say, "Hey, have you got any potatoes at home, or something?" They'd already stole the chicken or something. "Yeah." "Well, would you have a tomato or a potato or something like that? You can eat some stew with us." That was the best tasting stew I ever had! They would go to my house and ask my dad, "How about...." "We can't give you no money, but we'll give you something to eat, but chop that wood first." If they didn't want to chop the wood, my dad wouldn't give 'em nothin'. But they'd chop, the ones that were really hungry, they'd chop the wood.

Muñoz: Were these immigrants from....

Estrella: Hoboes. The difference -a hobo's a wanderer; an immigrant, they're going from one place to another. These people just -trampes, hoboes.

Muñoz: I was going to ask you, were they Mexicanos? Gringos? What were they?

Estrella: No Mexicanos, no Negro, todos gringos.

Muñoz: Oh, my goodness.

Estrella: This is the way it was.

Muñoz: Those were the only ones that crossed the track, then?

Estrella: Well, yeah, but these people were really nice. I mean, you know, now they tell you you'd better watch out for the tramps or the hippie or whatever they want. You'd better watch out for them. Those people were so nice. I mean, they were storytellers. Oh, you could stay right there, just listen to them. They could tell you stories of all the states. That was our history -they'd tell us. Or, you know, "Over there in So-and-So, there's this." "Is there?!" "Yeah." And we'd learn from that. We'd learn some kind of history from other states.

Muñoz: Okay, just communicating with those people.

Estrella: Communicating with those people. I loved the hoboes.

Muñoz: The tar pits, where were they exactly located?

Estrella: Let me see right now. You know where Mayorga's's is? Welding?

Muñoz: Yes.

Estrella: Okay, straight north about two blocks. That's it.

Muñoz: And why do they call 'em tar pits?

Estrella: Because they were tar. They were tanks at one time where they held -they were tanks, open tanks, and there was tar down in there. We used to throw bottles in there, and try to break 'em from up there. But there was tar in there.

Muñoz: Okay. Crime. What crime do you remember? Were there any killings, knifings, robberies?

Estrella: The biggest crime, the biggest thing I remember, was in 1924, I think it was. Jim Wright was the chief of police, and everybody on the south side, everybody everywhere was laughing -Dillinger passed right through here, going to Tucson. And he tried to catch him, catch Dillinger. Big city cops couldn't, whole armies couldn't catch him. And Jim Wright was gonna catch him. That was a laugh, that was a joke all over -well, all over here. Is that the kind of crime you're talking about?

Estrella: Well, if you remember that, sure. How about local crime? But that's neat to know that, that Dillinger passed through here. I remember the story, too.

Estrella: Yeah, Dillinger passed right through here to Highway 66, and went up to Williams and clear past it, and I guess he went that way, because the road wasn't there yet -I-17 wasn't around.

Muñoz: Right. How about local killings? Any, do you remember?

Estrella: Well, in 1950 they killed my brother.

Muñoz: Oh!

Estrella: Around near Christmastime.

Muñoz: Oh, no!

Estrella: Yeah, they shot him, there at Griego's Tavern.

Muñoz: In Griego's Tavern?

Estrella: Yeah, I was there.

Muñoz: What was the cause of that?

Estrella: The cause of that, the guy was mentally retarded. I don't know why, to this day, I can't tell you why. But he was gonna shoot me. He was fixin' to shoot anybody that was around, I guess. And he shot at me and hit me right here. And then my brother saw him. I was at the end of the bar, way out there, and my brother was near the bar. So my brother went at him, he shot him four times.

Muñoz: That was in what year?

Estrella: In 1950.

Muñoz: That's one that happened within the family. I want to ask you on the red light district on San Francisco. What can you tell me or remember of that?

Estrella: Oh, yeah, well, like I tell you.... (brief interruption) There was El Paso Norte. Okay, there was a lot of men that stayed there. It was a hotel. But also there was a house of ill repute. Okay, the other one that I told you was right next to Griego's Tavern. And then there was another one on the street. What's that street there?

Muñoz: Benton?

Estrella: There was one right there. There was another one, somewhere down near, in la arroyo, where you go down behind Nackard's's. Better remember that....

Muñoz: On la arroyo, where you go down. Would that be behind Salvador Mir's house? No?

Estrella: No, no, no, no, no.

Muñoz: Further up?

Estrella: You know Nackards Wholesaler?

Muñoz: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Estrella: Okay, down in that arroyo, you used to go down in the arroyo. It didn't have no bridge, you went down in the water. Okay, there was one right there, but it wasn't very well known. I don't know to tell you this, but I'm going to tell you.

Muñoz: Okay, go ahead.

Estrella: Okay, I was sixteen years old. More or less, I made three or four dollars or something like that. So I went, I said, "Well, I'm going to see what's this about these women." Because in my time, you don't touch a girl. It's not as easy as it is right now. I mean, you know, before -and I was already fifteen or sixteen years old -kids know about sex way before that. Us, we didn't know anything -hearsay, you wouldn't dare touch anybody, because some father would kill you, right now. There wouldn't be nothing said, either. Okay, so I made three dollars, I think, or four dollars. So my dad was out somewhere, and I went in there. When I come out, who do I meet right at the door, passing right there? -we lived on First Street -my mother was coming from the show, and my sister. ¡Ayi! Oh, God, I didn't know what to do! Nina was so ashamed. So I was going to run away. I was just going to go run away. So I came kinda late. By nine o'clock, I came home, my dad was there, and later on I found out and my dad didn't say anything to me. I thought I was gonna get a big whipping. And my dad had told my mom, "He just wanted to find out if he's a man yet. So there's nothing to that. That's why they have prostitutes, to teach men that they don't touch girls." And I remember that. I give my dad very much credit for that. You know it's not a sin, it's something that's been there. That's the oldest profession in the world. That's what I remember about that. That I remember vividly, because my mother caught me.

Muñoz: How do you feel about naming, if you would like to name some of the people that had those places, those houses.

Estrella: Well.... I didn't know, but Jenny Cervantes and Doña Maria.... Oh, what's the name of those apartments right there, right behind Griego's Tavern?

Muñoz: Nieto?

Estrella: No.

Muñoz: Oh, I don't know.

Estrella: Okay, well, they ran it. And then the other one, like I told you, those people ran it.

Muñoz: Okay. All right. Prohibition, the bootlegging time.

Estrella: Oh, I can tell you a couple of stories on that!

Muñoz: (laughs) That's great, go ahead.

Estrella: All right. I told you that my grandmother had a restaurant, a little cubby hole restaurant. Okay, they had a bed in the back, so I would sleep in the back in the bed. And it had a window and a door in the back. So moonlight [nights], the moonlight was really bright. I'd look at the guys drinking in the back. I said, "Now, that's against the law. This is really illegal." And I'd see those guys. There was a lot of rocks behind El Rancho Grande and El Chin Chun Chan and all that. There were a lot of rocks, big rocks. So I see this guy drinking, and they go in to dance at the Chin Chun Chan. They hide the bottle, and I'd go over there and steal the bottle. (Muñoz laughs) I didn't want it for myself. I'm not any goody-goody, but I used to run, a lot of exercise and stuff. So I'd bring it and I'd hide it somewhere else, and I'd tell my dad where it was. ________ moola ____. Sometimes there was a lot of [it]. Well, they got wise to me, they wouldn't do it, they wouldn't drink there no more, because somebody was stealing their bottles. Well, it was me who was stealing the bottles. And we knew about stills out in the woods. They told us -my dad, my uncles, and everybody -don't dare go out there. Don't go. They had stills here in Walnut Canyon. They had stills all over the place. "But don't go out there. Don't you dare go out there. You'll disappear, they'll never find you out there." But there was a lot of moonshine going on around the place there -a lot of it. Like I told you about -people that are upright are upright. They don't care if they sell moola or not sell moola. I told you where they found a copper kettle, which is to make moola. Yeah, so....

Muñoz: It was around, huh? How about beer?

Estrella: Well, everybody made beer. It wasn't as illegal as whiskey, because they made whiskey to sell. Beer, more or less you made it for your own use, for your own enjoyment. Like I told you, I stole some beer from my grandma. My grandmother used to make it. She used to make the best beer in town, I think. But I'd never tasted the other one, so it was good.

Muñoz: So where would they get their ingredients from?

Estrella: Well, it's only grain, barley. You can get it anywhere. So that's where it was. And then fermented with sugar, or whatever they ferment it with.

Muñoz: Okay, your means of transportation when you were growing up, or your dad's means of transportation?

Estrella: Well, like my uncle. My uncle had two trucks, big trucks, to take the wood to the steam plants. Okay. And Mike Bedelia had a car, the ones he sold to my grandma for the little homestead that we had there. And most of them had little old Model "A," Model "T" Ford. Not too many people had cars. The Vasquez had trucks then, and a lot of people out there -not a lot of people, a few people had horses, horse-drawn. Don Alejandro.... Whew, my memory is bad. But he had a horse-drawn -horses to go get wood.

Muñoz: Alejandro?

Estrella: Alejandro, right next to you guys.

Muñoz: I know, I'm trying to think of Durella Soto's dad.

Estrella: Yeah! Alejandro. He lived....

Muñoz: ... two houses over.

Estrella: Yeah. David and Ray lived right in between you guys. Remember David and Ray?

Muñoz: No, that was probably before my time. But you know, what I want to ask you is, do you remember that fire in that neighborhood in the forties? Or you were probably out to war, huh?

Estrella: Yeah. I don't remember.

Muñoz: Yeah, because you probably were.... When did you go into the service? Were you recruited, or did you get selected?

Estrella: President Roosevelt called me, said, "You're invited to come and see me." It was great, because I worked in a sawmill. I was working sometimes sixteen hours a day. Everybody had to work it, because we worked eight to twelve hours for the sawmill, and sometimes just eight hours, and you worked four hours for.... What did the government....

Muñoz: CCCs?

Estrella: No, the same sawmill. You were effort. For the war effort you worked. We made big timbers. Timbers, we'd call 'em, twenty foot long, twelve-by-twelves, weigh about a ton, and we'd have to handle them all by hand, put 'em in the cars and stuff. So you're tired already. And like the sawmill was doing war effort, there was nobody gonna be drafted. They drafted people as old as thirty-five, forty years, then. And I was young, trying to go, and I said, "Oh, my God, good!" Bluejay went one year after I did. Have you ever heard of Chief....

Muñoz: Yes, Cortez?

Estrella: Uh-huh, there's another chief, Chief Yapundo. The Yapundos -Manuel, Joe.

Muñoz: I've heard of the Yapundos, yeah.

Estrella: Okay, then there was a lot of us that went in a troop train to California. There were some that were crying because they couldn't get to go like we were going. We were soldiers.

Muñoz: What branch were you in?

Estrella: I was in the Army Air Force. We'd take all the.... All the training that the Army does, we took a class. We were in the Air Force, we could go up in planes and be radar technicians, stuff like that. So it was nice.

Muñoz: The transportation, you were talking about a truck and stuff. And your type of work and jobs when you were little, you did whatever odd jobs, and then you worked in the lumber mill?

Estrella: I started working at Wholesome Café, 1937. I was twelve years old. I worked there as a dishwasher. That's when I got my Social Security. Before, you couldn't get your Social Security until you started working. Now they give you the Social Security, if I'm not mistaken, they give it when you're born.

Muñoz: Oh, the number?

Estrella: Yeah. Well, then, you had to start working for Social Security. So I started working there. I worked there at the slaughterhouse, like I told you. Before, I worked in the sawmill. Then I worked for El Patio Café. Jerry Andigatos, he's the one that owned it. I used to work from four o'clock in the afternoon, second shift, 'til four or five o'clock in the morning. The reason for that is that man was a stickler. Even the gum underneath the table, you had to go look for all the gum, every little speck. He ran a good restaurant. I got two dollars a day, and that's it. Not hourly or nothin'. So I got two dollars -fourteen dollars, seven days. That was, I mean, brutal work, that you were glad to have.

Muñoz: Sure. Sure, at that time. Now, what nationality was he? Greek?

Estrella: Greek.

Muñoz: Was there many other types of nationalities?

Estrella: Did I meet?

Muñoz: That you met?

Estrella: Here?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: The only ones -we worked -[I don't remember who held?] -we'd work at the bowling alley, right where the old, old post office used to be. Four-lane bowling alley. We used to be pin setters. My brother Toby, myself, Bluejay -which is Analo Cortez -and sometimes Piñon.

Muñoz: Who was Piñon?

Estrella: David Mir. We were raised together. And Jay Bagaña and Dave Portillo -we were all raised right there together.

Muñoz: You know the one I also remember is the one they called Chileen Mier.

Estrella: Oh, yeah!

Muñoz: I remember my dad called him Chileen. Okay, did you work at all times? Did you work after you got out of school? How did you keep your employment going?

Estrella: It was only part-time jobs that I had. And then when I got the full-time job, I started....

[END TAPE 2, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

Estrella: ... there at the sawmill was Arturo Adelia, my uncle. He was hard. But he was very fair. And most of the people there, that worked there, were good workers, were real good workers -most of 'em. And most of them were Mexicanos.

Muñoz: That worked at the mill? The high majority was?

Estrella: The majority, 90 percent of 'em, was Mexicanos. There were about three or four Swissos.

Muñoz: Oh, really? Did your father ever work in the logging camps?

Estrella: No. None of us, none of this family -all worked in the sawmill. They were graders, grade lumber.

Muñoz: Okay, that's what they did. All right, let's see, las medicinas, you've covered that your grandma was a curandera and she picked up herbs and stuff. What kind of remedies do you remember that she treated you for?

Estrella: Marijuana.

Muñoz: She used marijuana?

Estrella: Right. And they use it, right now they use it. Marijuana is the best thing in the world for asthma. They prescribe it right now. I know a man working at Depot Tellou. His last name was.... He smoked cigarettes, store-bought, that were made from marijuana. What my grandmother gave 'em was, you remember those old Prince Albert cans?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Okay, flattened out a little bit, and put it like that. And I remember I didn't know what the smell was. I didn't know what it was. Later on, I knew that it was marijuana that was doing it. And I said, "Mama, ¿para que es eso?" "It's para asthma, mi hijo." Para la asthma. Oh, okay, great, to me. Stafyaté -you know what stafyaté is?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Okay, that's medicine for the stomach. _____ abuela, I guess you know. Okay. Those are that I remember. But she had so many, she had poultices that she'd do. A lot of people say she could cure cancer, and there was no cancer then. I don't....

Muñoz: Remember?

Estrella: To this day, _____________. Okay. Now, everybody dies of cancer. Before they died of empachago, so it must be the same thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Muñoz: Some type of tumor, yeah, or whatever. How did you feel, being with her, delivering babies? I mean, you were part of that, too, with her, right?

Estrella: Yeah, I loved it. In our culture, in the Mexican culture, they give maybe the oldest, or one of the kids [is] given to the grandmother. The grandma hasn't got any kids of her own, so they'd give them one to take care of her -or visa versa. So Arturo Adelia, Jr., was the first one that she got. And then her auntie wanted him back. So then they gave me. My mother gave me.

Muñoz: To your grandma?

Estrella: Yeah. So my mother took me back, but gave her my second brother, which is Toby. Toby stayed with her. She died in 1937. He stayed with her until she passed on.

Muñoz: That's interesting to know. Because I have heard that. "I wasn't raised by my mother, I was raised by my grandmother," or an aunt or someone.

Estrella: Well, you notice me, when I say "mi mama," mi mama es my grandma.

Muñoz: Oh, okay.

Estrella: My mother, ______ Englese, my mother is my mother. Pero mi "mama" es mi abuela. I knew her ten years, and I was so close to her I was underfoot all the time with her. I loved her so much. I remember her writing [site si?]. I remember her so well, that lady that you saw her picture. I remember her so well. She could do anything anybody could do, plus everybody was a little scared of her, because she knew a lot of herbs, a lot of midwifery and stuff like that. Like I tell you, Dr. Sechrist and Dr. Raymond used to go and ask Grandma for certain things -which the doctors are doing now. The doctors are looking for herbs to cure. And I knew that years and years and years ago. Let me tell you a little story. My brother Abel, the one that got killed in 1950, when we were kids, one day -we used to fight with rocks _____________, against the Macias, against the Vegas, or against Dia Gomez. You ever heard Dia Gomez?

Muñoz: Yeah, Dia Gomez, sí.

Estrella: Okay, Dia Gomez, Daniel, and all those guys. Rocks, from one side, clear over there. (imitates sounds of rocks whizzing through the air)

Muñoz: Would that be the arroyo?

Estrella: Uh-huh, la arroyo was the dividing. So I'll tell you who was really good at rocks -Tony Losano, Chorrio's big brother.

Muñoz: Yeah, I remember him.

Estrella: He was a Marine. He came back very well decorated. Okay, one day my brother, Abel, says, "I don't know about those people. I got something that'll throw a rock from here to that hill over there." I said "Come on! Not even my uncle could do that!" They said that he could throw it across Lake Mary.

Muñoz: Yeah, okay, exaggerating a little bit. Okay.

Estrella: Yeah, exaggerating. I said, "Well, how you gonna do it?" He said, "I'm gonna show you." So we went back. ________________. We went back there, he had a pipe. I don't know how he drilled a hole in it at the end. It was covered in the back, but the front was....

Muñoz: Open.

Estrella: Well, gas was always around. I mean, gas.... He poured some gas in and lit a match. Those rocks flew out of there. You know what that is? Bazooka! It was invented until, what, 1943 or '44, and my brother knew about it. I can't believe that. If my brother had got a patent on it, he'd have been a rich man.

Muñoz: Yes, he would have been! (laughs) He was doing something of the future here, that you didn't know what. How fascinating!

Estrella: Yeah. Things like that amaze me.

Muñoz: And you know, that type of thing, it's not followed through. It's not like someone said, "Hey, you've got something here!"

Estrella: No. Well, heck, we were scared to tell anybody.

Muñoz: (laughs) You were scared to tell anybody! So did you ever hurt anybody by throwing rocks?

Estrella: I guess so, but we didn't mean to be....

Muñoz: Mean.

Estrella: Mean. We were just playing war. Have you ever heard the expression _________________.

Muñoz: No, I haven't.

Estrella: ___________________. One time those people up there were fighting with rocks.

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: There you go.

Muñoz: So you played part of that curandera and midwife assistant with your nana?

Estrella: The only thing I had to do was -my main....

Muñoz: Job.

Estrella: ... is to go take my grandmother and see that she [did go?]. Sometimes I had to hold the woman's hands when she was there. But I was a kid. Hardly any man would be in there, but I was a kid, so I could. I would grab the lady's hands or....

Muñoz: Hold her or comfort her.

Estrella: Yeah, or comfort her one way or another. But that's always stuck in my mind, I'll never forget that.

Muñoz: That is great, yes. I would have wanted to play your part.

Estrella: Let me tell you something. Right up there in this room up here, three of my grandkids were born.

Muñoz: Up here, at home?

Estrella: Yeah, through a midwife. Teresa, the one that I tell you, she's a Jehovah [Jehovah's Witness] -her.

Muñoz: She delivered them?

Estrella: No, she's the one that gave birth to them.

Muñoz: Okay. Now, in this curandera part, I think it's partly religious. Or how do you feel about that? Do you think there's a sort of religion behind it?

Estrella: I really believe las curanderas can cure you, because the will power is there. I got a couple of doctors I wouldn't take my dog to! I wouldn't take my worst enemy over there. You know, before, to me they were gods. You know, they could do no wrong. Priests, or ministers. Now, I'm not that gullible. ___________.

Muñoz: Yeah, that's good, that's the way you should be, I think.

Estrella: But if you do it on a curandera, if you've got faith that lady or curandero -it could be a man or woman -if he can cure you, you're gonna be cured. I don't care what happens. You can cure yourself of anything.

Muñoz: That's a good point, because that was exactly what I would ask you, if you thought it was a faith in _________.

Estrella: It's a faith, it's a faith. It's like church faith, faith in your son, faith in your mom, faith in your dad. It all comes under that heading.

Muñoz: Folklore. You mentioned the Urona earlier. Was that something that was brought from Mexico, do you think? How does that pass along? I mean, did you pass it down....

Estrella: It all comes from Mexico, I think. I believe it all comes from Mexico. Well, sure, I mean, all right, right now, you're sitting there, I'm sitting here. Somebody cries out here. Maybe they're whippin' up on the lady, or now it's the other way around -they're whippin' on the guy. Or, you know, the cats, they make funny noises -everybody's got a cat.

Muñoz: So that type of thing, that you think ______.

Estrella: Yeah, and right there where Los Chantes are, the woods were right there.

Muñoz: You don't think that she visually appears? It's just a noise?

Estrella: I really don't believe it.

Muñoz: All right. Okay, good point. I asked you if your father was a sheepherder, and you said he did a lot of sheep herding.

Estrella: No, he was a cowboy. He was a cowboy, but he also worked in -he was a tumbler, he used to balance chairs and things. He was a professional boxer.

Muñoz: Oh, was he?!

Estrella: Yeah, he was a good boxer.

Muñoz: Your father was?

Estrella: Uh-huh.

Muñoz: Did he ever play for any, or match anybody?

Estrella: In those years, a circus would come to town. "I can do this, I can do that. How much you pay me?" For standing up to a guy that's really a good boxer. ______________. He was a great dancer, too.

Muñoz: He liked dancing, huh?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: A man of many talents! Okay, so he was employed by a rancher?

Estrella: Yeah, employed there. By trade, he was a stonemason. He made, for the Babbitts, he made a fireplace. I mean, a real big one. I don't even know where it is now.

Muñoz: Or what house?

Estrella: With malpais rock. Part of it, the Griego's Tavern, he built, up to a certain point, and then somebody else took it up. If you ever want to ask, you know Tito Martinez?

Muñoz: Yes.

Estrella: Well, Tito Martinez said _______________. He was a craftsman on that.

Muñoz: All right. So Tito Martinez would be a good person to also ask. How about, when you were growing up, all those buildings around San Francisco Street, were they already up?

Estrella: More or less, especially.... Well, Don Lucito's was a little shanty, you know, but he also had honoria. He grew the best vegetables, old Lucito Ramirez. Well, you know _______ Mir's. That's a building, there's no two ways about it. And the other one, la sala ___________ Charlie Escoto's and Christina Escoto's. And the hotel there, the El Paso Norte, that's been a building there for.... All that, clear to the alley was there. And where ____________ had his barberia, okay, that all belonged to him. And Griego had Griego's Tavern. There, their home, Tito Martinez's....

Muñoz: The tourist home?

Estrella: Yeah, the tourist home there. Do you know that they played _________ there?

Muñoz: I heard it was built by an Español, that had a boarding home there. And that's the play that they put on the side, right? Handball?

Estrella: Yeah, well, reboté, that comes from across the sea, reboté. The wall is still there.

Muñoz: Yeah, I've seen it.

Estrella: Okay, it's still there. My dad used to play there, a lot of guys played there, la reboté. And then you had the Martinezes' barber shop. What's his name?

Muñoz: Frank?

Estrella: Frank, and his dad, y la Señora. And then....

Muñoz: American Laundry.

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: Estella Montoya.

Estrella: Estella! Estella had it. And of course the Nickards have been there for years, you know, where the buildings are.

Muñoz: What nationality would you say the Nickards are?

Estrella: Arabé.

Muñoz: Arabé, okay.

Estrella: Son Arabés.

Muñoz: Uh-huh. And then the Wooster Liquor, what was that? It was always a liquor store there at that corner?

Estrella: No, that was part of American Laundry. There was no liquor store. The liquor store came in later.

Muñoz: Oh, okay, that's good to know.

Estrella: And now that other building that's right beside the tracks, that was Talkington. There was a garage, a big garage right there, where the Horizon is, or American.

Muñoz: United something.

Estrella: United, yeah. And on this side, coming down after Pio -Pio Conterras owned right on Butler, which used to be Clay, he had a house right there. And then, I guess that property used to belong to them. There was nothing in between the Methodist Church, and later on ___________ Ben's mother....

Muñoz: And father.

Estrella: They bought that right there. But before, they lived on the other side, on your street.

Muñoz: Okay.

Estrella: Then the church, and then Tony Mesa lived right there. And I don't remember the Spaniards that lived in the Charro Café. The first name is Manuel -Manuel es un Españoles.

Muñoz: Osley?

Estrella: Osley! Manuel Osley. You know what he'd do? And I love him for it. I mean, I wasn't too proud to.... They had money. He'd give me his older clothes, same size. "Mira, ____________." _______________________. No problem, Manuel. ________. He was my buddy. I could get along with anybody, as long as they got along with me.

Muñoz: Except my dad, huh?

Estrella: Yeah! (chuckles) And then right next to the Osleys, that all belonged to my Uncle Arturo Adelia, the greenhouse and the little cabins in the back. And the big house belonged to my uncle. And down the way a little more.... Oh, right on the corner where they got, I don't know, nice building.

Muñoz: Yeah, a real nice building.

Estrella: Okay, it's a nice building. That belonged to the Barrerras. George Barrerras is still around, somewhere around here.

Muñoz: George Barrerras, is that Alcie Barrerras' brother? No? That's another Barrerras?

Estrella: By himself.

Muñoz: Oh, okay.

Estrella: And then on the other side of that street used to live Mr. Fuller, black. Black man, he used to sell _____. We'd go and stack wood for him, he'd take us fishing on Sunday down to Lake Mary -or Mormon Lake, or on Saturday. And then we'd have a fish fry. Mrs. Fuller could cook the best fish in the world. And the other little house, I don't remember who lived there, right in between.... No, that was on Mr. Fuller's. And then Marín. Ray Marín.

Muñoz: Okay, I don't remember them.

Estrella: All right, they lived there. _________. At the end of this building was Romy's house -Romy and las quatras, and all those guys. And on this side, coming back on San Francisco, Lomeli. He used to be the caretaker for the cemetery. He lived there.

Muñoz: Would that be the Citizens' Cemetery or the Catholic Cemetery?

Estrella: Citizens'. I only knew that one because I was Protestant.

Muñoz: Oh, okay. (laughs) All right. I was going to ask you about the Calaveras -you know the one they call the Calaveras?

Estrella: Well, I'm coming to that.

Muñoz: Okay.

Estrella: See, on the way back, there's that house. And then there's an old rock house that's falling down. My brother was born there in 1939 -it was new, belonged to another black man. His name was Mr. Johnson. That's all I knew _______. And it was new in 1939. _____, my brother, the one who played guitar. I don't know whether you know [him].

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: Okay, him. And then right next to him, los Cerras. Los Cerras lived there, right after that house was Abetas. You know the Abetas, by any chance?

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: Lucy Abeta and Don Abeta, all those Abetas. And on the next house lived the Marañas, which are kin to the Nagarpito and Frank and all those -cousins. Mary -oh, a whole lot of them. And then you had another man that used to board borregedos and stuff, right there. The name was Sanchez, Bennie Sanchez was the guy's name.

Muñoz: Okay, that had a boarding house.

Estrella: Where the black church is, that used to belong to my Uncle Joe. That's where we had _________. Now, we were talking about the Calaveras. The Calaveras was no streets, there was nothing there.

Muñoz: Okay, _______.

Estrella: Just up to the Via Gomez, which is the third street going across. But that was a hill going over, which the road is there yet. Now the road goes around. The Calaveras is all the way down almost to ... La Arroyo. You know, the arroyo that....

Muñoz: Yeah, that runs _______________.

Estrella: All that, we used to play there.

Muñoz: That's the dam? Is that where your dam was at?

Estrella: Yeah, where the little dam is. That's where the river goes like that. Okay, that's where the Calaveras is. That's Los Calaveras. That runs from there to Butler. That's where it ran to -all the way from there, up to the hill, right where that black church is on top. Right there. There was a few graves down there, but that's about more or less where it ran to. We used to play there all the time.

Muñoz: Do you know the name of that cemetery where the Calaveras is? Do you think it was part of the Citizens' Cemetery?

Estrella: The what?

Muñoz: Do you think the Calaveras was part of the Citizens' Cemetery?

Estrella: No.

Muñoz: Or was that another cemetery?

Estrella: It was another cemetery.

Muñoz: Do you know the name of it?

Estrella: That was before the Citizens' Cemetery. That was older. That was when people first came to Flagstaff, I think. That was two different cemeteries. Heck, there's a quarter or a half a mile between both of 'em -as the crow flies.

Muñoz: Let me ask you, do you remember where the Afro-American people lived?

Estrella: Wait a minute. There was only the Dorseys. Okay, Lynne Dorsey, you might have known Lynne Dorsey. Okay, Lynne Dorsey and his daughters lived right there on O'Leary, I guess you call it.

Muñoz: Right.

Estrella: After my uncle left, Lynne Dorsey got that. I remember them well. Mr. Fuller. It was Dorseys. Then you had Mr. Wells in Johnson. Wait a minute. There was one other black family. And that's all there was, five black families, when I was a little kid.

Muñoz: In that area?

Estrella: In Flagstaff. And Mr. Johnson lived over here near the hospital. __________ he was rich, because he made that big rock house. Well, it's not big. Before, it was big to us.

Muñoz: Right, right.

Estrella: It's a small one, about two, three bedrooms.

Muñoz: What would you say the size of your home was [as you were growing up]? Was it small? One room, two room?

Estrella: There was about three rooms. But then Grandma's house, it had three rooms. And the only one that wasn't married was my Tia Mina, which is one of your mom's best friends. So I would sleep over there on my Grandma's side. And then it was another house where my Aunt Decirra lived. So there was always room. It wasn't like we were crowded.

Muñoz: Oh, okay.

Estrella: Yeah, it wasn't like we were crowded. I never would sleep over there with the Adelias or the Rodriguez. I mean, they're the same clan.

Muñoz: Okay, so you guys stayed kind of close together -your whole family did? You were very, very close?

Estrella: And do things together, the families. We got a part during World War II when they took off to California -both families took off. We're the only ones that stayed. Both families, nothing, all of them. Some of them lived in Cottonwood. All of them are in California. The only Estrella that stayed in Flagstaff was my dad. We stayed here, and I'm still here. I'll be here for a little while, I hope.

Muñoz: Yeah, you will. You're doing good. (pause) Okay, if you want to end the session then.

Estrella: It doesn't matter, I can talk all day long!

Muñoz: (laughs) You do good. Thank you very much.

[END TAPE 2, SIDE B; END OF INTERVIEW]