BOB BOLTON INTERVIEW

   

   [BEGIN SIDE 1]

   

   This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona University.

We're visiting with Bob Bolton today.  It's December 16,

[1998].  Also present in the room are Karen Underhill from

NAU and Lew Steiger.  This interview is part of the United

Indian Traders Association Oral History Project.

   

   Cole:  Bob, let's just start at the very beginning, if

you could tell us when and where you were born.

   

   Bolton:  I was born in Columbus, Kansas, in 1926.  My

parents moved to New Mexico when I was eight.  We were part

of the Dust Bowl crowd, and we were starving to death in

Kansas, so we moved to New Mexico and found out what hunger

really was.  (laughter)  And then I went to school at

Moriarty.  Then I went into the Navy after high school.

After [the Navy] I migrated to Gallup.  I spent about twenty

years in Gallup, and that's where I became interested in the

Navajos and the Zunis and all the other tribes.  I worked

for a bus company in Gallup for several years, runnin' the

bus out on the Navajo Reservation.  Then I started selling

on the reservation for different companies.  I finally wound

up working for Henry Hillson in Albuquerque, an old-time

wholesale distributor in Albuquerque, a very fine firm that

for years had the Navajo clothing contract for the school

kids--but I never had any connection with that.  My job was

calling on traders and in-town businesses, selling dry goods

to them.

   At that time, all the old-time trading posts carried a

complete line of clothing for the entire family.  So they

had quite an inventory in the stores, of clothing and other

merchandise, to supply all the needs of the Navajo people.

Most of my traveling was on the Navajo Reservation.  At the

same time, I sold Pendleton blankets for R.M. Bruchman out

of Winslow.  He was a very fine gentleman.  I started

working for him when he was about eighty-five.  He lived to

be a hundred and five.

   

   Cole:  When you said you moved to Gallup and started

drivin' a bus, when was that, about what year?

   

   Bolton:  It was probably about 1948 or 1949.

   

   Cole:  And how long were you a bus driver?

   

   Bolton:  About five or six years.

   

   Cole:  And you actually then drove out on the

reservation?

   

   Bolton:  Yes.  At that time we had a regular bus service

from Gallup to Chinle, and we hauled a lot of people,

believe it or not.  We had about four buses running.  But

that was about the time that--you know, right after World

War II, vehicles were very hard to come by.  But along in

the early fifties, then the Navajos were able to start

buying pickups.  Then as soon as they started buying

pickups, then the bus service started dwindling.  But we

hauled mail on the bus, and then we hauled freight on the

bus.

   

   Cole:  What were the road conditions like?

   

   Bolton:  Well, when I started, the pavement ended at the

state line.  And in the wintertime the roads became

impassable.  I remember one time when we hadn't taken mail

to Ganado for about a week, and we hooked two trucks

together and went over the mountain on the frost to get the

mail to Ganado.  Then we came back.

   But then in the fifties, they started paving the roads,

and things started pickin' up then.  But then the roads

ended at Ganado.  For many years, out around Piñon, they

didn't have a paved road.  And I don't think the road was

completely paved from Ganado to Tuba City 'til along in the

mid-fifties somewhere.  And in the wintertime, the roads

were just impassable, in the summertime they were so

corduroyed that you could hardly get over 'em.  (laughs)

   

   Cole:  So when you went to work for Hillson, about what

year was that?

   

   Bolton:  That was about 1963.

   

   Cole:  And if you could describe for us sort of what your

route was, going around the reservation, exactly how that

would work.

   

   Bolton:  Well, I had the entire Navajo Reservation.

Actually, I spent about a full four-week period on the

reservation, because at that time there were a lot of stores

on the reservation.  Like in Ganado, there were three

stores.  At Kayenta there were three stores.  Tuba City

there were three stores, or maybe even four.  Then all the

in-between stores:  like at Ganado, out west there, you had

Greasewood and Sunrise, then on down to Dilkon.  Then there

was Wide Ruins and Klagetoh, south of Ganado.  Over west of

Chinle there was Salina and Black Mountain, Smoke Signal,

Low Mountain.  Then on back to Piñon and Dinnebito.  You

didn't drive between the stores in just a few minutes.  It

might take you an hour, hour-and-a-half to get from one

store to another one.  But the people were very friendly,

and most of 'em were very lonesome.  And when you got to the

store, you had a lot of conversation and catching up on.

You never wanted to hit a store at eleven o'clock, because

if you only had thirty or forty-five minutes of business,

they would always hold you over for lunch, so they could

visit with you during lunch.  Then there were a lot of

stores where I would spend the night.  Got just set up on a

routine to where you would spend the evening with them, and

usually work the store after supper, and then spend the

night, and then the next morning get up and go on about your

business.

   

   Cole:  What were some of the stores that you regularly

spent the evening at?

   

   Bolton:  Kaibito was one that I almost always spent the

night there.  Then Navajo Mountain--always spent the night

there.  And I spent nights out at Piñon.

   

   Cole:  Who were the traders who were at the stores?

   

   Bolton:  At Kaibito it was Bob Redd, and then the

Kerleys, Al and Mrs. Kerley had the store there.  Before

them, when I stayed with them.  And at Piñon, I stayed with

Bill Malone there at Piñon when he was there.  I've known

Bill since he was a young man.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Would you bring the goods, or would you just put

the orders in?

   

   Bolton:  No, I carried a station wagon full of samples.

I would show the samples, and they would pick the

merchandise out of the samples, and then ship 'em the

merchandise.  But a lot of times they wouldn't even look at

the samples--they would just tell you what they needed and

give you the sizes, and we would pick out the merchandise

and send it to 'em.  And Mr. Hillson had a knack of knowing

the type of clothing to pick out that was very saleable, and

the people liked, and was very sturdy.  He was a good

merchant.

   

   Cole:  So would that just be one trip a year that you'd

go out there?

   

   Bolton:  Oh, no! every month.  Every month I would make a

trip.

   

   Cole:  And that trip would take a full month?

   

   Bolton:  Well, no, I would come back into Gallup or come

back into Albuquerque every weekend.  No, I just stayed out

about four nights a week, and then I'd be home.

   

   Cole:  And did you have other accounts outside the

reservation?

   

   Bolton:  Yes, I had accounts in Gallup and Winslow and

Holbrook, Flagstaff.  Part of the time I had the White

Mountain area.  I had the Lees down there, and then I had

the White River Trading Post.  Then there was another store

over--East Fork Trading, I had that store.  Then I went down

to Cibecue.  But that was mostly for the Pendleton blankets,

'cause at that time there were four or five wholesale

distributors out of Phoenix, also, that covered the same

area.

   

   Cole:  Did the Phoenix merchants cover for Pendleton

blankets or for everything too?

   

   Bolton:  No, they just had different lines of clothing.

There were not too many Pendleton blanket businesses.

There's been Babbitts in Flagstaff, and Kimballs and Gross

Kelly [phonetic spellings] had the blankets.  And before

that, Gallup Mercantile had them.  And then Bruchman's in

Winslow had the blankets.

   

   Cole:  If you could describe, maybe when you started

selling goods, what were the main things you sold, and did

you see a change over time in what they wanted at the posts?

   

   Bolton:  Oh, basically when I first started selling,

there were only about four different patterns of Pendleton

blankets, for instance.  Right now, I think we have about

probably twenty different patterns.  But when I first

started selling, we would sell basically just regular very

plain merchandise, like Wrangler jeans and boys' sport

shirts and boys' western shirts, and socks, and maybe a

store would carry one style of boys' shoes and one style of

girls' shoes.  The people weren't choosy like they are now.

They would accept--well, like we did when we were kids, when

our parents bought us shoes, that's the shoe that we wore.

That was pretty much the way it was originally.  But then

they started wanting more stylish clothes, and finally the

Navajo clothing contract ran out, because the kids wanted

more styles and wanted to be able to chose their own

clothes, and the kids would no longer accept what the

parents gave them, but they wanted to chose their own

clothes.  And then the Navajos started getting pickups and

getting more mobile, and they wanted to go into the

supermarkets and buy clothes.  That's when the trading posts

started diminishing.  The trader needed most of their income

in order to support them.  When they took that money off the

reservation, that made it difficult for the trader.  The

trading posts started vanishing.

   

   Cole:  When you mentioned the clothing contract, could

you explain a little bit more about what that was?

   

   Bolton:  Well, at that time, they had a lot of different

boarding schools, and the Navajo Tribe allotted money to a

clothing contract to buy clothing for the kids.  And the

teachers would measure the kids, and they had a chart for

every child--their sock sizes, underwear sizes--and then

they would send that in to Hillson's, and then they would

fill that order and send it back out to the schools for the

kids.  He had that for many years--I don't know how many

years, but probably ten or maybe even fifteen years, and he

did a good job with it.  He was an expert in his business.

But then that vanished, too.  And see, Henry Hillson

actually sold out to, I think it was the Southern Ute Navajo

Tribe, and then they ran it for several years.

   

   Cole:  When you first started traveling to the

reservation, what were the living conditions like for the

traders?

   

   Bolton:  You wouldn't say it was primitive, but it wasn't

just uptown either.  A lot of 'em still had outhouses.  Most

of 'em had electricity, but a lot of 'em were on generators.

For a lot of 'em, it wasn't what we would call real modern

living.  I really admired those people, because they really

did a service to the Navajo people.  It took a particular

kind of person to want to go out there and do that.

(chuckles)

   

   Cole:  What kinds of traits did you see in the traders

that were out there?--character traits.

   

   Bolton:  I don't understand what you mean, Brad.

   

   Cole:  What kind of a person did it take to be a trader?

I mean, were there certain personalities?

   

   Bolton:  Yeah.  It had to be a very easy-going guy,

because one trader told me one time, he said, "You have

these people comin' at you all day long.  They've been up

thinking all night how they can get to you, and you don't

have time to figure out all the methods that they can use to

talk you out of more credit, or some of the sad stories that

they think up to tell you to get more credit out of you."

'Cause, you see, most of the business was done totally on

credit.  When I first started goin' out there, it was very

difficult to get some of the traders trained to pay their

bills on a monthly basis, because they wanted to pay for the

merchandise when they sold their wool or sold their lambs or

sold their piñons or sold their cattle.  And they gave

credit on those sheep and on those lambs and on that wool.

And they didn't get paid until they brought in the wool and

sold the wool.  Then they wanted to pay their bills at this

time.

   I remember Henry Hillson, I heard him say a couple of

times that he told customers, "I have carried you longer

than your mother carried you!"  (laughter)  'Cause they'd

owed him money for longer than nine months.

   

   Cole:  Was Hillson pretty flexible in that area?

   

   Bolton:  Yes, he was.  I don't think you can survive

today in business, doing business the way that he did it,

because a lot of times people would owe him for almost a

year before he'd finally get paid and get caught up on his

bills.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever get paid in goods, like rugs or

anything?  Or was it always cash?

   

   Bolton:  I learned very early on to never take a rug or

never take piñons or anything like that, because once you

started, you'd ruin the customer, because he always wanted

to pay you in that method.  I worked for a while for a

company out of Grand Junction that sold clothing, and they

had a salesman that went down there and took a huge amount

of rugs and traded for merchandise, and they'd almost

bankrupt that company, because rugs were hard to sell.  Rugs

is a specialty, and you have to really know what you're

doin', and it isn't a game for the amateur.  But once you

started taking trade from the Indian trader, from that

moment on, it was always trade.  He would never have any

cash to spend.

   

   Underhill:  How were you paid by Hillson or Bruchman?

   

   Bolton:  He always paid promptly.

   

   Underhill:  And did you work on commission?

   

   Bolton:  Worked on a commission.  I worked on a total

commission basis, for both firms.  They were both very

honorable companies to work for.

   

   Underhill:  Do you remember what your percentage was

________?

   

   Bolton:  Five or six percent.

   

   Cole:  Was one more lucrative than the other?

   

   Bolton:  No, they worked very fine together, because they

were noncompetitive.  I never had any problem being

competitive with either one of 'em, because I had plenty of

time to work both of them, and they worked very well

together.  But back when I first started, see a $200 or $250

order was quite a nice order.  But of course we paid

probably 30¢ a gallon for gas, and I know I bought one new,

very nice station wagon for $3,600.  And a Coke was a nickel

or a dime.  It was just a lot less expensive to travel.

When I first started goin' to Kayenta, there was no motel.

But they had kind of a boarding house motel, where they had

a lot of just single beds in this big room, and you paid

$3.00 a night for the room.  And then Reuben Heflin opened a

nice motel at Kayenta.  I mean, it was as nice a motel as

there was anyplace.  And the rooms were $7.00 a night, and

we thought that was very expensive.

   

   Cole:  You paid then for all your transportation

_____________.

   

   Bolton:  Paid all my own expenses, yes.

   

   Cole:  I was wondering, you were talking about you

learned to never take rugs or piñon nuts.  Did you learn

that the hard way?

   

   Bolton:  I learned that the hard way.  I would go out and

take piñon nuts, and it would be amazing, I would always get

a price at Gallup before I left on that morning, but by

night, the price would have dropped, and I would always

weigh the piñons at the store, and by the time I got 'em

back to Gallup, they would have shrunk.  (laughter)  So it

didn't take too long to learn that I wasn't a piñon

merchant.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  What were the living conditions like for the

Navajos when you first started selling on the reservation?

   

   Bolton:  Most of 'em were still in hogans.  You know,

they had the wood stoves.  Very few of 'em had anything

other than the wood stoves.  Then they started getting the

gas cook stoves, first, I think.  Of course, it progressed

from that point.  Then all the years I traveled on the

reservation, I never had one time when I was afraid or

fearful.  If you ever had a car problem, usually the first

Navajo that went by would stop to see if you needed any

help.

   

   Cole:  How would you deal with car problems?

   

   Bolton:  You just had to fix 'em and go on.  I think the

only time I ever did have to be towed, I was goin' up the

mountain from Ganado, and my fan belts broke.  The nearest

place was back across the canyon.  So about the first Navajo

that stopped, he said, "Can I help you?"  And I said, "Well,

you want to tow me back across the canyon?  That sure would

be nice if you would."  But he scared the socks off of me

because the chain was only about six feet long, and he was

drivin' so fast I didn't even dare take my eyes off the road

to look at the speedometer.  But he got me back across the

canyon!  (laughter)  Usually the first car would stop to see

if he could help.  By that same token, if you saw someone

broken down, you always stopped to see if you could help

them, too.  So it always worked out for the best.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned that you traveled down to the White

River Reservation, too.  What were the differences, if any?

   

   Bolton:  Not very much difference.  I think the stores

down in the White Mountains progressed, or turned modern,

faster than the stores out on the Navajo Reservation--but it

was probably because they could get product out of Phoenix

faster.  Let's see, who was down there?  John Lee was down

at Lee's Store, when I first started goin' down there.  And

I think it was real sad when they tore down both of those

old stores and built the highway through there.  And when I

first started goin' on the reservation, a lot of the traders

hauled their merchandise out there.  They had their own

trucks, and they hauled it, because the wholesale houses--I

mean, those roads would tear up a truck so fast that the

trader, if he wanted merchandise, he went to Gallup and got

it--or Flagstaff or wherever.

   

   Cole:  Who were some of the more memorable traders that

you can remember any stories about?

   

   Bolton:  Well, I always remember Jack and Mrs. Lee there

at Keams Canyon, 'cause they were always very friendly, and

nice people to visit with and do business with.  I did

business with Cliff McGee and Bill McGee for years at Keams

Canyon and Piñon--and their sons.  I always like to go up to

Navajo Mountain because Mrs. Cameron up there was so nice.

She was always lonesome for company, because she ran the

store and very seldom saw anyone other than Navajos.  And

Bob Redd out at Kaibito and Al Kerley were real good friends

of mine--were for years.  Now Stanley Patterson is out

there.  He started workin' for his uncle over at Copper

Mine.  And Copper Mine was a big store for many years.  I

think Copper Mine is where I saw the largest herd of sheep I

ever saw.  I drove up to the store one day, and it was just

a field of sheep.  I asked how many there were, and I

remember he said there was 2,700 lambs out there, that they

were getting ready to run out, to pasture 'em.  That was a

lot of lambs.  But that's how many lambs and sheep that they

raised at the time.  Most of the traders would have several

semi-loads of wool to ship out.  Now, as far as I know, the

only trader that still buys wool is probably Teec Nos Pos.

I don't know of another trader on the reservation that still

buys wool.

   

   Cole:  And who's that at Teec Nos Pos, do you know?

   

   Bolton:  His name is John [McCollach].  I've forgotten

his last name.  That store, for several years, belonged to

Russell Foutz.  His daughter now is running it, and her

husband is running it.  And Jay and Loyd Foutz [at

Beclabito], they might still buy wool.  They probably still

buy wool.  I've known them for a long, long time too.

   

   Cole:  Were there any Navajo traders?

   

   Bolton:  Not very many.  You see, they have kind of a

family situation where it's very difficult for a Navajo to

refuse to help another Navajo--particularly his family.  It

was usually very difficult for a Navajo to make it in

business because of his relatives--didn't feel they should

have to pay for the merchandise.  It made it very difficult

to be able to accumulate enough merchandise to pay for their

merchandise.  I did do business with several Navajos.

   I remember one time this man opened the store at

Cottonwood.  He was a nice young Navajo man, and I went by

his store one day and stopped and told him who I was and

everything, and he said, "Well, I'll be needing some

merchandise."  So you just let it go at that.  Maybe he will

and maybe he won't.  So I come home one night and walk in

the house and noticed there was a pickup parked at my house.

I drove in the back and went in the house, and my wife said,

"Well, you'd better take care of that man, because he's been

waiting for you since noon."  It was this Navajo, real nice

fellow.  So he said he wanted to buy merchandise for his

store, and I said, "Well, what do you want to buy?"  He said

he had an SBA loan, and he had $4,000 to spend.  He said,

"You just figure out what I can buy for $4,000."  So I said,

"Okay."  And at that time, Mr. Hillson helped a lot of

people go into business.  One way that they would do it,

they would just figure out how much money they had to spend,

and we would figure out the amount of clothing they could

purchase.  So anyway, I was real busy at the time, I think

it was back-to-school time, and I didn't get it done that

night, and I didn't get it done the next day.  So in two or

three days, I went in the store and they said, "You'd better

call them, because Hillson's been tryin' to get ahold of you

all day."  So I called in and they said, "Well, this

fellow's here, and he wants his merchandise, and we don't

have an order."  (laughter)  So I told them what to do, and

they figured him up an order and shipped it to him.  And it

was real funny, because a few days later I drove by the

store and I stopped and I looked through the front of the

store, and the merchandise was in the store and the shelves

were there, but nobody around.  So I went on my way, and the

next time I went by, I stopped and asked him what was wrong

and he said, "Well, it was so difficult, all the things I

had to do to get the store going, that after I got

everything lined up, we just took a vacation."  (laughter)

You know, we wouldn't think of doing that!  But that was his

philosophy, and he seemed to do all right that way, although

the store didn't last too many years.  I think it's closed

now.

   

   Cole:  And then you mentioned working for Bruchman.  What

was Bruchman like?  Who was he?

   

   Bolton:  He worked at stores in Gallup, and then he

finally went over to Winslow and he opened up a trading post

there.  Then when Pendleton Woolen Mills needed to start

selling blankets down in this area, they sent a salesman out

of Portland to sell blankets.  Then at the time, Pendleton

blankets were so much more expensive than other blankets, it

was very difficult to get 'em established.  In fact, when I

first started selling blankets for Bruchman, I went in to

talk to him about it, and at that time the robes sold for

$19.95 and the shawls for $21.95.  I said, "It will be

impossible to sell those, because I have other blankets in

my line for $2.00 and $3.00 each."  And he said, "Well,

these are different."  And so I started selling the blankets

for him, and I found that to be true, that they use the

Pendleton blankets for special occasions.  And although they

use 'em for bed blankets, too, mostly it's for special

occasions that they buy them.  But Mr. Bruchman then got to

be a distributor and started selling the blankets.  Then

over a period of time, then they opened several other

distributors.  But the reason that they went to distributors

instead of selling them direct was because of this problem

that the traders only paid their bills two or three times a

year.  And Pendleton couldn't exist on those kind of terms.

And so they got intermediaries there to sell the blankets.

And the same thing holds true today, although we have very

few problems in collecting our bills today, there are so

many small accounts that we sell, it just isn't feasible for

Pendleton to sell [to] all these people direct, that we sell

[to].  But Mr. Bruchman continued the distributor[ship] for

as long as he could do it.  And see, he had six children,

and all of them passed away before he did.  He turned it

over to his grandchildren, and then the grandchildren were

not terribly interested in the business, and so I got it

from Pendleton.

   

   Cole:  And what was Bruchman like?

   

   Bolton:  He lived right in the back of the store.  He was

a very well-liked, very generous person.  During the time

that I knew him, I don't think he ever took a vacation.  He

might have gone to Phoenix one or two times.  But he

basically just stayed there, and he just loved the business.

I guess almost every Indian in the entire area knew Mr.

Bruchman.  They would just come in there and visit with him.

I know my association with him, on the last day of the

month, he would make his bookkeeper figure up my commission,

and before that day ended, he mailed my commission check to

me.

   

   Cole:  You had told us that you met your first wife on

the reservation.  How did that happen?

   

   Bolton:  Well, see, she, during World War II....  See, I

didn't go into the Navy until almost the end of the war.  I

didn't know her at this point.  She went to school at

Muncie.  The government had some sort of a plan worked out

that you could go to college, but you had to then go to work

somewhere--either go into the service and work in the

service, or go out and work in the BIA agency somewhere.  So

she chose Fort Defiance, and that's where I met her, at Fort

Defiance.  She was out there working out her "penance" to

pay back her college tuition.  She worked out there for a

couple of years to get that taken care of, and that's where

I met her.

   

   Cole:  And how did that happen?

   

   Bolton:  Well, we were boys and we found out there were

girls out there!  (laughter)  That's how it happened!  Went

out to a dance and met her.  Then we were married for twenty-

six years and she had a heart attack and left me.

   

   Cole:  So was that like a dance that was just for the

nurses, or was it for all the people there?

   

   Bolton:  No, usually the nurses would have a dance once a

month.  And of course they were girls lookin' for boys, the

same as it is today.  Had a lot of fun at Fort Defiance.

There's a lot of those nurses that married traders.  Richard

Carson there in Gallup, and Raymond Carson.  There's a bunch

of 'em.  Tobe Turpen's wife is a nurse.  I don't know if she

was a cadette or not.

   

   Cole:  I think she was.

   

   Bolton:  Was she?

   

   Cole:  What was your first wife's name?

   

   Bolton:  Roberta Warrick was her maiden name.

   

   Underhill:  How did she like working with Navajo

patients?

   

   Bolton:  She liked it.  I know she said the first thing

they wanted to do when they came into the hospital was get

clean.  She was always admir[ing] of the way that the women

took care of their hair, because, you know, they all have

this beautiful long black hair.  She always admired 'em for

the way that they always took care of their hair.  And how

most of 'em felt real bad when they had to leave the

hospital and go back home.  She just loved....  Well, I

think all the nurses did, because the Navajos are gentle

people, and they're always very appreciative for what you do

for them.  But of course that hospital finally closed.  It's

gone now.

   

   Cole:  Did she continue to be in nursing after you were

married?

   

   Bolton:  She worked for a couple of doctors there in

Gallup for several years, and then she quit when we started

havin' kids.  She stayed at home.  Then she worked for a

while at Fort Wingate as their nurse out at Fort Wingate.

   

   Cole:  And it sounds like you're still selling Pendleton

blankets on the reservation?

   

   Bolton:  Still selling Pendleton blankets.  That's

basically all we do now, is sell Pendleton blankets.  We're

the only distributor left in New Mexico, and in fact I don't

think there's even a clothing distributor left in New

Mexico.  When we started this business we were also a full-

line clothing business, but we don't sell anything now,

except socks--and very few socks.  But we have a line of

scarves that we sell, and then we sell the Pendleton

blankets.  And then Babbitts are in Flagstaff, and they have

a Pendleton distributorship too.

   

   Cole:  So is it the same routine for you now?

   

   Bolton:  No, the finest thing that ever happened to us

was the fax machine.  Saved me a lot of automobiles and a

lot of gas.  (laughter)  I still go out on the road about

one week a month, and then I make intermediate trips, maybe

to Santa Fe or Taos or somewhere.  But most all the orders

come in now over the fax and over the phone.  And that works

out quite well.  I go out and visit with my friends.

There's still a few stores that want me to call on 'em, but

I try to train someone in the store to know about Pendleton

blankets, and then have them just fax in their orders or

call in their orders.

   When I first started goin' out on the reservation, most

of the stores had phones, but the phone service might be out

for two or three weeks at a time, and it wasn't very

dependable.

   

   Cole:  You were telling us earlier about specialty

blankets that Pendleton makes.  How does that work?

   

   Bolton:  Well, if a person wants to make their own

special blanket, they can do so, but they have to figure out

a pattern that we can develop to the looms.  Pendleton will

plan that blanket and get it all figured out to the

customer's satisfaction, and then we will make that special

blanket.  But the mill doesn't want to make fewer than a

thousand.  But then they've dropped that down now to where

we will make 500.  But then those are a numbered series of

blankets, and they usually cost a little bit more than the

regular blankets, because of the cost of the designing of

the blanket.  But then once that series was made and

manufactured, they don't reproduce that blanket, unless the

person that bought the blanket the first time wants that

blanket reproduced.  That usually doesn't happen, because a

thousand blankets is a lot of blankets.

   

   Underhill:  What does a sort of standard blanket go for

these days?

   

   Bolton:  The wholesale is around $80 up to a queen size

is $105.  And then five, that's wholesale.

   

   Cole:  How about a shawl?

   

   Bolton:  It's $84.50 for a regular shawl, wholesale.

   

   Underhill:  What kinds of special occasions are the

blankets used for?

   

   Bolton:  They're used for everything.  They're given away

as baby gifts, given away for graduation, and weddings,

Mother's Day, Father's Day, Christmas.  They're always used

for funerals.

   

   Cole:  Why do you think the Pendleton blankets are so

popular among a culture that does all this weaving and

creates their own blankets?

   

   Bolton:  Pendleton has worked very hard to develop an

association with all the different tribes all over the

United States, and even in Canada and other nations.  They

make a high-quality blanket that the people just like.  In

fact, Pendleton has produced the Indian patterned blankets

back around 1900 when nobody else could develop the formula

for weaving them on the looms.  And Pendleton has, just over

the years, maintained the superiority to where they've been

able to produce this high-quality blanket.  A lot of

different companies have tried to make a blanket that was

competitive, and some of 'em are competitive, but they have

not been accepted as well as the Pendleton blanket has.

   

   Cole:  On these specialty blankets, when you first

started, did you ever have any orders for those?

   

   Bolton:  No, that is something new.  That's something

that has happened in the last ten years, I would say.  Yeah,

when I first started selling blankets, usually a six, eight,

or ten-blanket order was a pretty good order.  Then it's

just developed to where now we have the stores that keep an

inventory of 100 or 150 blankets.  They just continue to

sell.  Christmas is a big season for us for blankets.

   

   Cole:  And who are some of the people or trading posts

you've made the special blankets for?

   

   Bolton:  We made two for Hubbell, we made one for

Cameron, we made one for the Ceremonial Association.  And we

made a balloon blanket for Albuquerque.  We're still working

on one for the Jicarilla Tribe, but we haven't been able to

come up with a pattern that is acceptable to everyone thus

far.  It's real difficult to get a blanket that the people

want, that's acceptable to them.  We wouldn't want to make a

blanket that wasn't saleable, because we want those blankets

to be sold out of the stores.  Every year Pendleton comes up

with one or two new patterns--well, more than one or two--

they come up with five or six new patterns.  Then every year

they kill five or six patterns.

   

   Cole:  Did you ever sell to Babbitts?  Or were they just

competitors?

   

   Bolton:  I have sold to some of their stores, when I sold

clothing.  And I have sold Pendleton blankets to their

stores, but basically it's developed down to where they sell

to their own stores now.  I don't sell to their stores.

   

   Cole:  And how were Babbitts perceived among the other

traders on the reservation?  Was there any just

competi[tion]?

   

   Bolton:  Well, they were kind of competitive, because I

think at one time Babbitts owned several stores on the

reservation--maybe even as many as six, or maybe even more.

And I think some of the traders kind of resented them,

because they were able to buy the blankets, of course, at

distributor cost, where the traders had to pay wholesale

costs.  But I don't think there was any great big problem

there.  And Babbitts have always been a fair competitor.

There's never been any animosity between us.

   

   Cole:  What do you see as the future of the trading

business on the reservation?

   Bolton:  Well, I don't think there's any trading business

hardly left on the reservation, Brad.  I think it's

basically all gone.  There's so few stores left, they've all

turned into convenience stores, or the community is being

supplied by a large grocery store or something like that.

Like in Kayenta, Kayenta Trading Post is still there, but

the other two stores are gone.  The old Warren Trading Post

is gone.  The same thing is true down at Tuba City.  Tuba

City Trading Post is still there, and Van Kureaus are still

there, but they've put in a Basha's, and Basha's have taken

a lot of the business.  But there used to be a huge store

there on the corner--Navajo....  What did they call that

store?

   

   Underhill:  Navajo Shopping Center?

   

   Bolton:  Navajo Trails Shopping Center, I think.  And

see, it's gone now.  Then the old-time traders, so many of

'em have moved into town, like with Tanners--Don Tanner.

Shush Yaz  moved into Gallup.  It's just been very difficult

for the trader to stay.  They've either had to go to

basically cash or leave.  Kaibito and Shonto and Inscription

House are still out there, but they're still quite isolated.

   

   Underhill:  What attracted you to being a salesman?

That's not always an easy life.

   

   Bolton:  No, it isn't.  But probably because I knew a lot

of the traders and became acquainted with them socially.

And then, of course, when I was runnin' the bus, I became

acquainted with a lot of 'em.  I just found a niche there

and I wanted to fill it and did so.

   

   Underhill:  What makes a good salesman?

   

   Bolton:  I think just being friendly with people.  That's

all.  Being able to converse with people.  Being able to

walk into the store and take a view of the shelf and see

something that they needed and mention it to 'em, and tried

to persuade them to put it into the store.  I think the

major thing is just being friendly with people and being

able to converse with them, because all it is, is them

wanting to buy from you instead of buy from your competitor.

   

   Cole:  I was curious.  You mentioned about how lonely the

traders were.  What kinds of things would they be interested

in talking to you about when you'd show up?  Anything in

particular?

   

   Bolton:  Well, most of 'em would try to pry information

out of you about their competitors.  (laughter)  That still

happens today!  (laughter)  And they were just interested in

things that were going on that they didn't know about,

because, see, there was no newspaper, radio reception was

terrible, and their contact with the outside world just

wasn't that great.  It was very difficult, I think, on the

women.  I know a lot of those nurses married traders, and it

was real difficult for them to adapt to the trader's life,

where if they were real lucky they got to go to Gallup on

Sunday.  They didn't go on Saturday, because the store

stayed open 'til six o'clock in the evening.  But the stores

all closed on Sunday.  If they were lucky, the wife got to

go to Gallup on Sunday.  It was a pretty rugged life for

'em.  A lot of the women didn't have washing machines, you

know, and they'd have to use a washboard or something to

wash their clothes.  I remember one trader told me that they

worked and they saved and they saved:  what each wife wanted

was an automatic washer, and it took 'em several months to

save up enough money to buy an automatic washer for them to

have in the house to wash the clothes.

   

   Cole:  You mentioned they came into Gallup on Sundays.

Were stores open then in Gallup?

   

   Bolton:  No, I don't believe even a grocery store was

open on [Sunday], but there were movies to see and

restaurants and usually some kind of a community activity

goin' on that they could partake in to get relief from the

reservation.  And then on the west side, they went to

Flagstaff or even Phoenix to get away from the store for a

few hours.

   Back in those days, every year we would have a clothing

show, and we would have one in Gallup and one in Farmington,

where we would invite all the traders to come in, and that

was quite an event.  Most of the traders would come in and

visit with you and see your entire line at those times.

Then fewer traders and last time, we finally gave that up

many years ago.  We'd set up in Gallup for a couple of days,

and set up in Farmington for two or three days.  At one time

we even went out to Kayenta and we'd set up there for a

couple of days, and the traders would come in there and look

at your line and visit with you.  You'd buy 'em a dinner and

visit with 'em.  They would get to meet other members of the

company.  Then we always had a big one at Hillson's in

Albuquerque every year.  The show would last probably three

days there.  We had a lot of people come in from all over

the state, would come into the shows.

   

   Cole:  Would you ever have any involvement with a

ceremonial in that regard?

   

   Bolton:  No, not much.  That was kind of a different

program, too.

   

   Underhill:  What was Gallup like in the fifties and

sixties?

   

   Bolton:  Well, in the fifties, the El Rancho Hotel was

almost outside of town.  They just had the two streets

downtown, and then north and south.  Tobe Turpen had his

store over on the north side of town.  It was just a very

small town.  We bought land two blocks south and two blocks

east of the El Rancho.  And there were no paved streets out

there at all for several years--probably 'til way up into

the fifties, when it was paved out that far east.  But

Gallup was a traders' town, and the traders liked Gallup,

and Gallup always tried to accommodate the traders, for that

reason--still does.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Would any members of your family ever travel with

you out on the reservation?

   

   Bolton:  No, not very much, because the kids were in

school.  The kids would go with me in the summertime.  Then

when the kids got older, my wife went with me--but

occasionally, not all the time, because you're gone for a

week, and it's just hard to get away for a week.  I didn't

have very many people who went with me.  Mr. Hillson would

come out once in a while, and we'd go out and try to collect

bills.  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Do you have a favorite part of the reservation?

   

   Bolton:  It's probably the Ganado-Chinle area, out in

there, Fort Defiance, Lukachukai, up in that area.  See, at

one time, there were three good stores in the Lukachukai

area.  Now Brad is the only one left up there.

   

   Underhill:  Did you ever learn to speak Navajo or Apache?

   

   Bolton:  No.  No, it's a very complicated language.  In

fact, I ran a store one time for about six months out of

Tohatchi, and I only learned to speak just the limited

words.  I don't even remember what they called "water" then.

I know they called gas chidí bitoo’.  Just a few simple

words, that's all I ever learned.  I really admire the

traders who can speak fluent Navajo, because it is a very

difficult language to speak.

   

   Cole:  And how did you happen to run a store for six

months?

   

   Bolton:  Oh, a friend of mine talked me out of quittin'

my job, so I could make a lot of money running the store.

And it took me six months to find out I couldn't!

(laughter)

   

   Cole:  And then you just went back to your old....

   

   Bolton:  Yeah, went back to selling again.  See, there

was a nice store there at Tohatchi at one time.  At one time

I had eleven accounts between Gallup and Shiprock.  Now all

those stores are gone.

   

   Cole:  What was the main reason for that?

   

   Bolton:  The coming of the vehicle, to where they had

transportation.  The Navajos like to travel.  You've been

[out there].  They're on the road as much as they can be,

and they just like to go to town.  A store has to make a

certain amount of sales before they can stay open, and when

it drops down to where they can't make a living anymore,

they have to leave.  And then I think the tribe started

clamping down on 'em quite a bit, and making it more

difficult for them to stay.  You can't build a store and

survive on a twenty-five-year lease.  It just isn't

feasible.  You can't stay.

   

   Cole:  Were you ever a member of the United Indian

Traders Association?

   

   Bolton:  No, never was.

   

   Cole:  Did you have any involvement with them at all?

   Bolton:  No.  I just knew most of the traders that

belonged.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember them talking about some of the big

issues that happened to 'em, like for example the FTC

hearings?

   

   Bolton:  I knew that was going on, but I never did get

involved with 'em.  I knew that they really cracked down on

them over the pawn.  But in all honesty, I never knew a

trader that I thought was a crook.  I mean, you had to get

up early to think ahead of those people, 'cause they would

put rocks in their wool, and put sand in their wool.

(chuckles)

   I think one of the funniest stories I heard, there was a

trader out at Inscription House, and when I first knew him,

he was an elderly man, and he'd been on the reservation all

of his life--Stokes Carson--you've probably heard of him.

He told me one time, a long time before I knew him, that

this person brought in a sack of wool, and of course a

trader, you can look and see a sack of wool, and you know

approximately what it should weigh.  If a sack of wool

should weigh 250 pounds, and they threw it on the scales and

it weighed 350, they knew they were buying something they

didn't want.  So he said they took the wool, and they always

took it in the back and dumped it to see what it was, and

then they would adjust the bill accordingly.  And they

dumped out the wool, and there was a differential for a

Model "T" Ford in that sack of wool.  (laughter)  So he said

he just settled up with the old man, and he just left that

part of the car there in the back room.  He said the next

spring that guy come in and he wanted to buy a sack of seed

corn.  So he just went back in the back room and he dumped

out half of the seed corn and put that rear end back in it

and filled it back up with corn.  And he sold it to the guy

and he said the guy would always come in and just laugh and

laugh and laugh because they'd gotten even with each other

and nobody was angry!  (laughter)

   But the Navajos have really quite a sense of humor, and

you have to really get up early in the morning to get ahead

of 'em.

   

   [END SIDE 1, BEGIN SIDE 2]

   

   Cole:  This is Brad Cole from Northern Arizona

University.  We're visiting with Bob Bolton.  It's December

16, 1998.  Also present in the room are Karen Underhill from

NAU and Lew Steiger.  This is [Side] Two of a United Indian

Traders Association oral history.

   Bob, you were just tellin' me a little bit about how

difficult it was for the traders to try to explain how their

business practices worked, to, say, outside entities like

people that were looking for traditional accounting.  Maybe

you could tell us a little bit about the kinds of credit

they ran.

   

   Bolton:  Well, they would carry the Navajo from wool

season to lamb season.  And then some of the Navajo would

have cattle, and those would come in a little bit after lamb

season during the fall.  Almost every store bought wool,

lambs, and cattle.  They had to, in order to buy the

customer's product in order to survive.  And then after they

got the welfare checks, then they would have the checks come

to the store.  Those would come in monthly, and that's the

way they survived.  But for a long time, there was very

little money that was on the reservation, because the only

commodity was what the Navajo had to sell.  Of course they

all bought rugs, and most of 'em took pawn until the

government said they could no longer take pawn, and then

they had to quit takin' the pawn.  I don't think anyone was

ever cheating.  It was just the fact that it was so

difficult to conform to all the rules and regulations.

Hasn't changed much.  It's very difficult for a business to

keep all the records that's demanded by different

governmental agencies.

   

   Cole:  If you don't mind talking about how much credit

some of the stores would carry, you were mentioning some

pretty astronomical figures.

   

   Bolton:  When you really found out about it, some little

store that wasn't really doing that much business would have

$100,000-$200,000 worth of business on the books that had

accumulated over the years.  Usually half of that wasn't any

good.  The people had passed on, and there's no estate,

there's no way to collect the bill, and it just continues to

drag on.

   

   Underhill:  From talking to traders, how would you

describe the Navajo economic system, or their perception of

the traders and the trader business practice?

   

   Bolton:  I think a lot of the older Navajos were faithful

to the trader, and they were concerned about their bill, and

they tried to pay their bills, but the economic situation

was just so bad that it was very difficult for them to pay

their bills.  Then later on they started to--they would try

to have accounts at two or three different stores, and when

that happens, one of 'em would always get shorted.  I know

when I was runnin' the store at Tohatchi, at that time, this

trader suspected this person was trading over here.  He

would go over there and visit and find out, and they would

try to stop it.  And a lot of times this trader would go

over and buy this account out, and bring it back, so that

someone would have a way of collecting the bill.  I think

most of the traders tried to work together to keep their

bills collected, 'cause it was tough to keep them honest and

to keep the bills collected.  Then it got to a point where

the trader had to start eliminating the accounts that

wouldn't pay, to where now I don't think there's very much

credit out there on the reservation.

   

   Underhill:  How have you seen the Navajo culture change

over the years that you were out there?

   

   Bolton:  I think it has really changed.  I really think a

lot of the Navajo people have really gone up in the world,

and they're very honorable, trustworthy citizens now.  Look

at Gordon Gorman, there at Ganado, that ran the Round Top

Trading for so many years.  A very good friend of mine, I

think a lot of Gordon.  He works out at Toyei now.  He had

to close his store, because it got to the point where he

couldn't make a living in the store anymore.  Then the big

business--there's no way that a trading post can compete

with a chain store.  You just can't buy the merchandise for

the same price.

   

   Cole:  What do you see as the future of the Navajo

Reservation?

   

   Bolton:  I think that a lot of people--well, Stanley

Patterson at Kaibito pointed this out to me not too many

months ago--he said that with the new government regulations

where the people have to go to work, if they want welfare

they have to go to work somewhere.  He said, "We're losing a

lot of people here because there is no work, and they have

to move off of the reservation in order to have a place to

work."  So a lot of people are leaving the reservation.

   

   Underhill:  What are some of your favorite memories from

all the time that you spent out there?

   

   Bolton:  Oh, I think a couple of funny things that

happened to me while I was driving the bus, 'cause that's

where you really get acquainted with the people.  One of my

favorite stories is I had this very attractive Navajo lady,

and she always dressed in traditional.  She had about four

or five little kids, and they were always dressed

traditional--always so clean and bright and shiny--they just

shone.  And they would get on the bus and she would pay

their bill and then when they started to get off the bus,

here would go this little dog.  And they rode the bus for

years, and I never did find out how they got the dog on the

bus.  (laughter)  And I didn't care about the dog, because

it was a nice little dog, and they would just laugh at me,

and they thought it was so funny 'cause I couldn't figure

out how they got the dog on the bus.  And I never did figure

it out.  And I'd watch 'em when they got on the bus.  I

never did figure out how she got the dog on the bus.

   Then another time, the trader at Hubbell's at Ganado--I

don't even remember his name--but I also hauled laundry and

dry cleaning, and he had this Stetson hat, and it was real

dirty, and he asked me one day if I could get it cleaned for

him.  I said, "Sure, I could get it cleaned."  So I took it

and I put it on the bus, and I put it way back in the corner

and blocked it off.  So I get to Gallup and unload all of my

passengers and my mail and take my laundry out, and the

hat's gone.  And he told me before I picked the hat up that

he'd won the hat at a rodeo and it was worth $40.  Forty

dollars was a bunch of money in the fifties, and I had a

family and I didn't know how I was gonna pay for that hat.

So I figured out on the bus there were only four passengers

that day.  I didn't go back and tell him I'd lost the hat,

because I didn't have forty dollars.  About three days

later, two of these ladies that had ridden on the bus got

back on the bus.  So I told 'em, "Well, I can't put your

luggage up front, I'll have to put it in the back."  So I

put the luggage in the back and opened it up, and here was

my hat.  They had put clothing around the hat so it wouldn't

get crushed or anything.  So I took the hat out and put the

clothing back.  Then for years those ladies rode the bus and

they'd get on there and they'd look at me, and they would

just laugh, and I would laugh.  (laughter)  They were always

pullin' jokes like that on me when I drove the bus, because

they're very friendly, and it was always a great big joke

with them.  If they pulled a trick on you, they expected you

to get even with 'em some way.  (laughter)  But I sure was

glad to get my hat back.  (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  When you were a trader at Tohatchi, what

kinds of things were you asked to do in addition to

providing goods?

   

   Bolton:  I never did have to deliver any babies or

anything like that, but I know some traders that did.

(chuckles)  They would ask you to help 'em fix their car or

get their flat fixed.  Way back early, they still had some

of the old wagons, and there was a place in Gallup that

fixed wagon wheels.  I've hauled wagon wheels into Gallup

and got 'em fixed for 'em.  They weren't bashful about

asking for favors.

   

   Cole:  What was the name of the bus line?

   

   Bolton:  It was Cresto Bus Lines.  Bert Cresto owned it.

He ran it for many years there out of Gallup after World War

II.

   

   Cole:  What would it cost to go from Chinle to Gallup?

   

   Bolton:  $1.90.  Then from Ganado to Gallup was $1.45.

And from Fort Defiance to Gallup was 90¢.  And then from

Window Rock to Gallup was 50¢.  Can you believe that?!

(laughter)

   

   Cole:  Could somebody go to Gallup and back in the same

day from Chinle?

   

   Bolton:  It was very difficult.  The first day, they had

a bus that left Chinle in the morning, and one that left

Gallup in the morning.  So they usually had to stay

overnight.  Then when they had the tribal councils, we

always hauled a lot of those people back and forth, 'cause

there was no motel to stay in, in Window Rock at that time.

Well, they finally did build a motel, but there were only

about fifteen units or something.  Most of 'em would ride

the bus to Gallup and then ride back out the next morning.

   

   Underhill:  It's a step backward, but when your family

left Kansas and came to New Mexico, what was your dad's

occupation, or what did he hope to do here?

   

   Bolton:  Just anything he could find to do.  One of the

first jobs he got was helping build the road from Edgewood

to Santa Rosa, because, see, when we came to New Mexico, the

road came to somewhere over there.  I believe it was Santa

Rosa, and then it went to Santa Fe and came back to

Albuquerque.  One of the first jobs he had was helping to

build that road at the Clyde Tingley got built so the road

went straight from Albuquerque to Amarillo, Texas.  Then he

worked in construction, and then we had a farm later on, out

west of Moriarty, and that's where we lived, raised pinto

beans.

   

   Cole:  What was your dad's name?

   

   Bolton:  Ora, O-R-A, Bolton.

   

   Cole:  And your mother?

   

   Bolton:  Her name was Leona.

   Underhill:  What did you expect to do when you were a

kid?  Did you have a dream or aspiration?

   

   Bolton:  I really didn't.  Well, see, World War II

started when I was probably a sophomore in high school.  And

of course then, you had no choice.  Five days after I

graduated from high school, I was in San Diego with the

naval training base.  That's just the way it was.  You went

into the service immediately.

   

   Underhill:  And what did you think of San Diego, having

come from New Mexico and Kansas?

   

   Bolton:  It was quite a shock!  (laughter)  I don't

suppose I had been west of Albuquerque at the time, and I'd

never been on a train.  We got on a train and went to San

Diego, I went into the Navy.

   

   Underhill:  And did you go to the Pacific?

   

   Bolton:  Yeah, I went to the Pacific.  Should have stayed

in, it was a good life, but they had to decrease the forces

and there was no way to stay in at that point.

   

   Cole:  You indicated that once your family moved from

Kansas, that things were even tougher in New Mexico.  Why

was that?

   

   Bolton:  Well, there were no jobs.  It was in 1934, right

during the Depression.  My dad was very fortunate to find a

job.  One of the things we always did, at that time there

was a lot of rabbits and a lot of birds, and we hunted all

the time.  We had a .22 rifle, and my dad had five sons, and

he gave the five of us a .22 for Christmas.  It was a single-

shot, and if you took a bullet, you had to bring something

back.  (laughter)

   

   Steiger:  He gave the five of you one rifle, not five of

'em?

   

   Bolton:  No, one rifle for five.  And a lot of times, we

would catch a rabbit or throw a rock at 'em, because they

were quite plentiful, and then we would have an extra .22

shell!  But it was a very difficult time.  If it wouldn't

have been for pinto beans and rabbits, I probably wouldn't

be here.  (laughs)

   

   Underhill:  And do you still like pinto beans?

   

   Bolton:  I still love pinto beans.  Don't each much

rabbit, though!  (laughs)

   

   Cole:  Was it a dry farm then?

   

   Bolton:  It was a dry farm.  See, the irrigation didn't

start in Estancia Valley 'til probably the late fifties.

All the bean farms had been shut down at this point, because

they had that terrible drought in the early fifties.  Even

down in here there was no water to irrigate--there just

wasn't any.  I was fortunate to find a job in Gallup after I

got out of the Navy.

   

   Underhill:  What kept you in the Southwest?

   

   Bolton:  I love it here.  After I got married, we went

back to Indiana one time.  We were gonna move back to

Indiana--stayed two weeks and came back!  (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  What is it that you love about the Southwest?

   

   Bolton:  I love the weather.  There's just something

about it that keeps us here--the blue sky and the people.  A

lot of friendly people in the Southwest.

   

   Cole:  And if you could go back and change anything about

your life or your work, would you do that?

   

   Bolton:  Probably not.  I probably would have started

selling earlier in my life, because you get to meet a lot of

really wonderful people.  And there's so many challenges to

it.  You find someone that won't buy from you, so you keep

workin' at it until you can figure out a way to get 'em to

buy from you.

   

   Underhill:  Does anyone stand out in your mind who was

particularly stubborn?

   

   Bolton:  Well, Leonard Kilgore, that had the Navajo

Trails Store at Tuba City.  He was set up with suppliers,

but I called on him every month.  Finally, after several

months, he said, "You don't give up very easy, do you?"  I

said, "If I gave up very easy, my kids would be hungry."

And he started buying from me, and he became a good friend.

Then finally, over the years, he bought everything I had, I

supplied his store.  (chuckles)

   

   Cole:  Have any of your children taken after your line of

work?

   

   Bolton:  No, they haven't.  There really isn't a demand

for this type of work that I do anymore.  I have one

daughter that's in Grand Junction, and another one that

lives in Puerto Rico.  Neither one....  Well, there isn't

any place for it anymore.  When I started traveling as a

salesman, some of the motels devoted entire rooms to

salesmen.  And now, I don't know of another salesman that

travels as a clothing or shoe or any kind of dry goods

salesman.  At that time, all the wholesale houses, like

Gallup Mercantile and Kimball's in Gallup, Gross-Kelly, they

had full-time salesmen that went out on the road and called

on the stores.  Then if the trader didn't go in and pick up

his merchandise, they delivered it.

   

   Underhill:  How many salesmen did, for instance, Gross-

Kelly have working for the firm?

   

   Bolton:  They probably had four or five.

   

   Underhill:  And how many did Henry Hillson have?

   

   Bolton:  He had four or five of us.  We had the state

divided up.  There were just little stores everywhere, that

aren't there anymore.  There were a couple of little stores

right up here on this road, and three or four in Las Lunas.

All those stores were served by salesmen.

   Cole:  And when you used to visit with the traders, did

you ever try to pry information out of them about your

competitors?

   

   Bolton:  Sure!  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Couldn't help but ask.

   

   Bolton:  You tried to find out how much they were selling

an item for, to see if you could compete with 'em, or see

what you needed to do to come in line so they'd buy your

merchandise instead of your competitor's.  But usually the

trader would tell you what he paid for that item, so he'd

try to get you to sell it to him for less money.  (laughter)

   

   Underhill:  And who were your competitors?

   

   Bolton:  Well, we had Isabel Kent Oares out of Denver,

National Dry Goods out of Phoenix, Ledbetter's out of

Phoenix, and McCreary and Pough out of Phoenix.  In El Paso

there was Rio Grande Sales and Sun Dry Goods.  That was just

in this area.  Most of the salesmen were friends.  I know

when the motels first opened, we would share rooms to keep

the cost of traveling down.

   

   Cole:  Do you remember any of them?

   

   Bolton:  Well, Paul Allen and Herb Idleson [phonetic

spellings] and Gene DeGeorges out at Gallup.  They're all

gone.  Vince Wellsby [phonetic spelling] worked for Hilson.

He quit when I got hired, or he quit just before I got

hired.  He traveled out there for several years before me--a

very nice gentleman.  We were competitors, yet friendly

competitors--didn't have too many disagreements with any of

'em.

   

   Underhill:  How many traveling salesmen jokes have you

heard?

   

   Bolton:  Oh, a bunch of 'em.  (laughter)  I never could

remember 'em.

   

   Cole:  That'll be a different tape, huh?

   

   Bolton:  Yeah, that'll be a different tape.

   

   Cole:  Is there anything else you'd like to add?

   

   Bolton:  Gee, I can't think of anything, Brad.  We've

pretty well covered everything, I think.

   

   Underhill:  Lew usually has a question.

   

   Steiger:  I can't really....  You guys have done well.  I

can't think of anything extremely ___________.

   

   Bolton:  I'll have to tell you a funny one on Lij.  He

was president of the Traders Association and I don't even

remember how they did it, but they got a good friend of

mine, who's still with Pendleton Woolen Mills, to come down

to one of their meetings.  I don't know what the big

argument was about, but this fellow and Lij got into quite a

conversation.  Almost once or twice a year this friend of

mine at Pendleton always asks me, "How is that Blair guy

doin'?"  (laughter)

   

   Cole:  Would you go to Dinnebito at all?

   

   Bolton:  Yes.  Yeah, Dinnebito was a real good account.

But it was on a terrible road.  When they had that old adobe

mud, once you got into it, it would ball up on your tires.

I know several times I've driven into Dinnebito, then

suddenly you realize you can't go, so you back up.  And I've

backed up a mile, or a mile and a half to get back to where

you could get turned around.  But there would just be two

ruts, you know, and there would be nobody else there.

Sometimes you could get up there, and there'd be two or

three pickups stuck in the mud.  All you could do would be

to back out and go on your way.  I never did get stuck too

many times.  I was always smart enough to back out and get

turned around without getting stuck.

   

   Underhill:  You mentioned you had a station wagon.  Was

that your car of choice?

   

   Bolton:  Yeah, because you carried so many samples.

Later on, I drove a pickup, but I don't know, pickups didn't

really get that popular 'til the seventies, maybe.  I know a

fellow in Farmington started using a pickup, and we all

thought he was crazy, and then realized suddenly that he had

a pretty good idea.  Then the rest of us started using

pickups with camper shells on it.  But everyone drove a

station wagon.  You know, they made those old big boats that

you could put a lot of stuff in.

   

   Cole:  Well, thank you for sitting with us.

   

   Bolton:  I hope I've given you some ideas, or something

you can use.

   

   Underhill:  It's wonderful.  And it fills a gap.  We

hadn't spoken to the salesmen yet, so this is really good.

(tape turned off and on)

   Bolton:  I went down to Nazlini--you know where Nazlini

is, don't you?  Well, it's out south of Chinle and north of

Ganado, down in the bottom of the valley.  I got out there

one day, and this trader was just furious because he was

buyin' wool.  He suddenly realized that this funny-lookin'

gunny sack full of wool had come back by him three or four

times that day.  So he watched it, and the guy that was in

the back room was supposed to be packin' the wool, he would

just pitch a sack out and one of his friends would bring it

back out and sell it again.  So he was buyin' the same wool

over and over again.  (laughter)  They had all kinds of

tricks that they could pull on you.

   Of course, the trader, he was pretty smart, too, because

most of 'em couldn't read.  I don't think they really

cheated the Indians, they just had to adjust the price to

make up for all that sand and rocks and stuff that went by

'em.  You can't buy too much sand and stay in business.

(laughter)  I thought that was interesting--he was buying

the same wool over and over.

   

   Underhill:  Thanks for lettin' us put that on tape, too!

   

   [END OF INTERVIEW]